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> No One To Vote For, Election
john.mcn
post 10th Jun 2017, 08:01am
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QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 10th Jun 2017, 05:52am) *
If you are talking about Proportional Representation here John I would advise against it.
I live in a country that uses this system and it works against the electorate. Encouraging Cronyism, Nepotism and any other Isim you can think of.
Under PR the voter has no say in who represents the interests of a particular area. with all decisions regarding MP appointments being made at party headquarters.
If any MP goes against Party instructions from Head Office they are replaced with someone more compliant to the Bosses way of thinking. This is done without consulting the voters


A complete shake up of everything Davie, from how votes are calculated to devolving power to council and more control over local issues to the public.
There are many different system of PR, Scotland uses 2 different types but as we have seen recently certain parties members have tried to manipulate the outcome by instructing their support to vote a certain way, i.e in the 2nd list vote, vote for the Greens who may get seats if the SNP reach their vote share quota through the FPTP first vote and force through a 2nd Indy vote (which they did). The vote till you boke message sent out to manipulate the PR used in council elections(Single transferable vote) was an attempt to coordinate voters into voting for every person standing so that Con/Lab/Libdems were placed at the bottom and risked losing out on seats. These two instances disgusted me as they were trying to make someone elses vote null and void through manipulation of the system brought in to make sure everyones vote mattered.
Maybe our list vote area needs to be Scotland as a whole rather than regions, and those on the list have to be selected from failed candidates who actually campaigned. Whichever system is used and perfected its better than FPTP which sees a party with 50% of the vote return 90% of the MP's, it was funny when it happened but it isnt really fair is it.
QUOTE
If you were to ask any average voter here in SA who is their local MP they would most probably not be able to tell you, the majority of 'MP's' dont go near the area the party have appointed them to look after once their appointment has been confirmed.

The only people chapping doors near me were Labour. I would have thought that the sitting MP after seeing the Tories become the largest party in the council she would be out chapping doors instead of posting on social media and sending loads of leaflets out. None of my family voted SNP, coming from a YES household where they all voted SNP last year thats pretty damning. When I asked my kids who and why they voted, their answer was Jeremy Corbyn(no he wasnt standing here wink.gif ). The issues of the Scottish government discriminating against British students was something they brought to me after learning their friends paid fees while those from the continent got it free.
QUOTE
Keep the system you have in place now, with one exception get rid of the House of Lords. There is no need to have an unnecessary second house that does nothing for the money spent on it.
Our experience is that when the government engages in anything against the interests of the people then the Constitutional Court soon brings them back to reality.


I'm not against an upper house to help balance the other chamber , its the size of the thing and who the members are that bothers me, often if the public reject politicians we cant get rid of them as they get appointed to the HoL. Maybe it should be fully answerable to the public but political party members are banned


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bilbo.s
post 10th Jun 2017, 09:47am
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john.mcn
post 10th Jun 2017, 10:11am
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I think the voter figures represent how that night went more than number of MP's elected via FPTP, or is the people in Scotland not sovereign anymore (my, how quick was that phrase dropped)

SNP 977,569 votes

Con/Lab/Lib who campaigned against another ref 1,654,017 votes.

To use someone elses phrase, the people have spoken!

I'm just catching up on Nics speech on the BBC facebook page, lots of apparent SNP voters not happy that most didn't vote for the SNP. Quite calm so far, I've seen some pretty nasty stuff on facebook these last few months (terror attacks were false flag operations etc)


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enrique
post 10th Jun 2017, 12:56pm
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For me my show of victory is increasing your seats not losing them , and as I have said before I voted FOR indi , but I worry Sturgeon is going to burst the bubble by going for another vote too soon , and we will never get a third go for quite sometime , she should stick to trying to improve our lot while she is leader instead of trying to make a name for herself
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JAGZ1876
post 10th Jun 2017, 05:23pm
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QUOTE (john.mcn @ 10th Jun 2017, 11:11am) *
I think the voter figures represent how that night went more than number of MP's elected via FPTP, or is the people in Scotland not sovereign anymore (my, how quick was that phrase dropped)

SNP 977,569 votes

Con/Lab/Lib who campaigned against another ref 1,654,017 votes.

To use someone elses phrase, the people have spoken!

It was a Westminster general election played by Westminsters FPTP rules, if you're not happy then blame the Tories and Labour parties as they steadfastly refuse to change their two party stranglehold, the SNP have proposed and supported the introduction of PR on several occasions.

Again, this was a Westminster General Election not a referendum, there will be YES voters in the 1,654,017.
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john.mcn
post 10th Jun 2017, 09:24pm
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I know it's a big ask asking you for proof as you seem to drop your arguments when it's asked for, but do you have any incidences where the SNP have proposed any bills calling for PR for Westminster elections in the last two years?

Ohh and I mean proof, not SNP members saying they support it, I mean did they actually propose bills to change the voting system.. No digs or trying to get one up, I want to know if they were willing to sacrifice 1/2 their MPs to bring PR to Westminster or was it all just talk.


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JAGZ1876
post 11th Jun 2017, 11:32am
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QUOTE (john.mcn @ 10th Jun 2017, 10:24pm) *
I know it's a big ask asking you for proof as you seem to drop your arguments when it's asked for, but do you have any incidences where the SNP have proposed any bills calling for PR for Westminster elections in the last two years?



Here you go John.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/polit...s-10223302.html

I know it isn't a bill proposal but they are still supportive of PR in Westminster.

Since you bring up the subject of answering questions and the fact you admitted you did know what the vow was can you then answer my question to you which was "what parts of the vow were actually delivered?".
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JAGZ1876
post 11th Jun 2017, 11:39am
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QUOTE (enrique @ 10th Jun 2017, 01:56pm) *
For me my show of victory is increasing your seats not losing them


It's FPTP Enrique, it's the SNP's second biggest Westminster general election win, do olympic gold medals not get handed out if the winner of the race doesn't beat his previous best time?
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john.mcn
post 11th Jun 2017, 11:53am
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QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 11th Jun 2017, 11:32am) *
Here you go John.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/polit...s-10223302.html

I know it isn't a bill proposal but they are still supportive of PR in Westminster.

Since you bring up the subject of answering questions and the fact you admitted you did know what the vow was can you then answer my question to you which was "what parts of the vow were actually delivered?".


Bloody hell did you even read my post, I said a Bill not a newspaper headline, saying you would vote for a bill when you have the power to bring one forward is just a fudge. They released that to the press in May 2015, that was before they won 56 seats in Westminster(held 7th May), in the two years they had the majority of seats in Scotland with less than 50% of the vote did they bring forward a bill to back up their claim they supported PR in Westminster.. you brought it up so I want to know if their word is as good as they say when they have the power to follow through on it

Its funny that you try to divert from posting the vow you claim has not been fulfilled by asking questions that I can easily answer if you just post the Vow, whats it been, 3 weeks now?


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JAGZ1876
post 11th Jun 2017, 03:18pm
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QUOTE (john.mcn @ 11th Jun 2017, 12:53pm) *
Its funny that you try to divert from posting the vow you claim has not been fulfilled by asking questions that I can easily answer if you just post the Vow, whats it been, 3 weeks now?



You have had three weeks to answer my question so it's clearly not as easy for you to answer as you claim.

But never mind, the election is over, there will be no referendum anytime soon so let's turn our attention to the Brexit negotiations, you voted leave perhaps you can tell us all how we get out of the mess you and your fellow seps have gotten us into? unsure.gif
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Dykejumper
post 11th Jun 2017, 04:02pm
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John, thats as near as a admittance he was wrong that you are going to get.
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john.mcn
post 11th Jun 2017, 08:09pm
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Here is the discussion that has been going on for 3 weeks now, it's only been going on that length of time because Jagz has avoided, despite several requests, posting the Vow he claims has not been fulfilled. Notice his diversion tactics and now his plea to just end it when he could have done so by just posting the Vow he is referring to. Also notice that he tried to divert my request by asking me a question on the 22nd of May which I answered but he still goes on that I haven't to try to divert attention away from the fact that he refuses to just post the vow he was referring to. It's a simple request that he post proof of his claims but as any reader here knows Jagz rarely backs up his accusations when asked for proof..
All of this could have been prevented if he just posted the Vow when asked 3 weeks ago
QUOTE (john.mcn @ 21st May 2017, 04:22pm) *
What was the VOW jagz?

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 21st May 2017, 06:17pm) *
The Vow was a pack of lies as you well know.

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 21st May 2017, 10:28pm) *
I asked what the VOW was jagz, not your opinion on it. you state that is hasn't been fulfilled then why not post what it was and others can make up their mind if it was or not.

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 22nd May 2017, 11:30am) *
You don't know what the Vow was?

Was Cartoon Network channel doing a Scooby Doo 24 hr special that day?

Why should i do all the work, you look it up then tell us what has been delivered in full and others can make up their mind if it was or not.

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 22nd May 2017, 06:22pm) *
I know what it was and I confronted you before about it. You were the one who stated it s not fulfilled so it should be easy to post it and prove your assertion

I'm telling you that the vow to hold talks on power transfers has been fulfilled, the SNP played a major part in the discussion, the Scottish parliament stacked with SNP politicians voted for proposals and the 56 (at the time) SNP MPs voted for the Scotland act that put into motion the power transfer.. So tell me jagz, if the SNP was involved all the way and voted for the outcome of the talks what Vow are you talking about has not been fulfilled?

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 23rd May 2017, 10:07am) *
No, you clearly don't know what the vow was. huh.gif

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 23rd May 2017, 07:16pm) *
Well then Jagz, enlighten us!

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 24th May 2017, 07:46pm) *

wink.gif

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 24th May 2017, 11:42pm) *
I'm assuming that is supposed to be tumbleweed?

You do realised you've just made a rod for your own back?

Here's one of your heroes take on the Vow.

http://www.thenational.scot/politics/14888...filled_The_Vow/

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 25th May 2017, 12:02am) *
Hold on, your evidence that the vow was not fulfilled is an article from 2015 before either Holyrood or Westminster voted on the Scotland act, which the SNP Politicians in both houses voted for..

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 5th Jun 2017, 08:07pm) *
No can do Jagz, it's still in use waiting for you to post the wording of the Vow you claim hasn't been fulfilled. It's been two weeks since I asked and if I knew it would have been that hard I might not have asked.

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 7th Jun 2017, 10:23am) *
If you don't know the wording of the vow then why should i waste my time giving you it when it clearly went over your head the first time.

If you do look it up yourself you can come back and answer my question to you about which parts of the vow were actually delivered?

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 7th Jun 2017, 08:39pm) *
I do know the wording of the Vow, it is not me who is saying that it has not been upheld.
strange that you took the time to google Broons response in 2015 yet didn't just post the vow so that others can make up their own mind. That you once again refuse to post it and now say you wont waste your time basically screams that yer talking mince . If the Vow had not been fulfilled you would be posting it in large bold print, both as proof and as that rod you so wish to beat my back with.

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 8th Jun 2017, 12:37am) *
So i don't need to explain it to you then, so you can tell me the parts that have been upheld then?


Come on now John, you've had over a fortnight tick tock, your precious Ruth No Surrender party is going to be in for a big disappointment in 24 hours.

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 8th Jun 2017, 07:39am) *
Just say that you wont post the vow because it shoots down your argument, anyone can see your diversion tactics to avoid posting it.

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 11th Jun 2017, 11:32am) *
Since you bring up the subject of answering questions and the fact you admitted you did know what the vow was can you then answer my question to you which was "what parts of the vow were actually delivered?".

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 11th Jun 2017, 11:53am) *
Its funny that you try to divert from posting the vow you claim has not been fulfilled by asking questions that I can easily answer if you just post the Vow, whats it been, 3 weeks now?

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 11th Jun 2017, 03:18pm) *
You have had three weeks to answer my question so it's clearly not as easy for you to answer as you claim.

But never mind, the election is over, there will be no referendum anytime soon so let's turn our attention to the Brexit negotiations, you voted leave perhaps you can tell us all how we get out of the mess you and your fellow seps have gotten us into? unsure.gif


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bilbo.s
post 11th Jun 2017, 09:55pm
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QUOTE (john.mcn @ 11th Jun 2017, 10:09pm) *
Here is the discussion that has been going on for 3 weeks now, it's only been going on that length of time because Jagz has avoided, despite several requests, posting the Vow he claims has not been fulfilled. Notice his diversion tactics and now his plea to just end it when he could have done so by just posting the Vow he is referring to. Also notice that he tried to divert my request by asking me a question on the 22nd of May which I answered but he still goes on that I haven't to try to divert attention away from the fact that he refuses to just post the vow he was referring to. It's a simple request that he post proof of his claims but as any reader here knows Jagz rarely backs up his accusations when asked for proof..
All of this could have been prevented if he just posted the Vow when asked 3 weeks ago




Nurse, the screens! wacko.gif


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john.mcn
post 11th Jun 2017, 10:28pm
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Quite strange that you ask one o them and the other pips up, its like a strange ventriloquist act, a dummy and a dummy.. You should try that on BGT laugh.gif


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Kemedian
post 11th Jun 2017, 10:58pm
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I have literally just read 'The Vow' for the first time, and can't believe what all the fuss was about. It is no more substantial than any other tabloid front page and if anyone was swayed by it then what was the point of the TWO year campaign period!

It's what followed in legislation that mattered most, which was never going to please everybody, but that's Politics.

If the SNP has any idea at all what independence entails, then it would not have wasted public money in an unhelpful Brexit court battle. Yet more evidence that it doesn't.

I don't want Brexit but it's happening and it won't be pleasant. I can only hope that it properly puts The 45 off the idea for good. agree.gif



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