Are The Scots Really Irish? Dalriada, Gallowglass, The historical links between Ulster and Argyll Rating Options

[Paul Kelly]

Hi Derick.

Donaghy is an Irish Gaelic surname originating in the Tyrone/Derry region of Ulster. Many of the 19th century Irish immigrants to Scotland came from the north west of Ireland. Most of the immigrants were illiterate and their surnames were usually recorded in a 'Scottish' manner by Scottish officials.
eg Donachy or Donnachie instead of Donaghy.

(See posts #200 #204 and #205 of the topic 'Common Irish Surnames In Scotland'.)

I went to school with a boy with the surname Donnachy and I know he was of Irish descent.

Donohue and McDonagh are also Irish surnames.

Currie is an Argyll surname and I am sure it is a common surname in Ulster due to the 17th century Scottish Plantation of Ulster.

Incidentally, Curry is considered to be an Irish surname.

Paul.

This post has been edited by GG: 3rd Jan 2008, 10:25pm

[Paul Kelly]

Hi rdem

I understand that the Y chromosome is passed from father to son to son to son to son etc in the same way that a surname is passed on through the generations. The Niall of the Nine Hostages Y Chromosome is found in nearly all men with the surnames O'Neill, O'Donnell, Gallagher, Doherty, McLaughlin, Boyle (and quite a few other surnames.)

So if you were born with one of the above surnames then it is highly likely that your father's father's father's father's ..... father was Niall of the Nine Hostages!

rdem, it is true that you probably don't have the Niall of the Nine Hostages Y Chromosome as Dempsey is not one of the surnames mentioned in the articles. However, I am sure you are a descendant of Niall of the Nine Hostages as I remember reading elsewhere that you have Gallagher and O'Donnell ancestors.

It really is a small world!

Paul.

This post has been edited by Paul Kelly: 13th Oct 2006, 07:25am

[RonD]

Correct Paul:

While I may be in the Niall gene pool, it wouldn't show up in y DNA. As I understand the dna from the female doesn't show in male offspring after one generation. Dempsey from O ' Dempsey while a local force from the 11th to the 17th century were originally a sub tribe of O Connor Faly, who claim descent from Rosse Failghe, the oldest son of Cathair Mor a 3rd century high king of Ireland.

[marina]

i love the irish just as much as the scots


















rdem- i love your wee bit at the bottom

[RonD]

Thanks Marina: I' trying to figure out how to put that signature on my e mail accounts too <smile>

The history of Ireland is fascinating, especially pre Norman Ireland.
Paul: You mentioned that the surname Gallagher possibly went as far back as the fifth century. The name as we have mentioned means foriegn soldier . An explanation is possibly since the Irish were so insular, in that every "tribal hieftain" considered himself a king, "righ" in Gaelic, that possibly the "foriegn element referred to non Gaels such as the Formorians who lived in Ireland in pre Celtic times or the Cruithne the Irish version of Picts.

[Iain Kennedy]

I have had the so-called Niall DNA test done, technically it is called M222 and I am positive for it. My ancestry is from Loch Rannoch. IMHO the Irish origin is still to be proven. There are at least two commercial companies who can provide the test, or the result can be predicted quite accurately by the more common 'STR' y-dna tests. I also run one of the many surname DNA projects around, for the Kennedy name.

On the subject of Scots in Ireland, have a read of 'Scots mercenaries in Ireland' and the tale of Turlough who assembled some 3000 Scottish Highlander men in Strabane, Co. Tyrone in the late 1500s.

As for Dal Riata, some are now questioning the extent to which there was a large scale population replacement by the Irish in 'Scotland'. Chief amongst those arguing this is Dr. Ewan Campbell of Glasgow University archaeology department. He will be doing a talk on Dal Riata at Ayr in mid December which I hope to get over to.

Iain Kennedy
Dowanhill
Kennedy DNA and genealogy study

[Paul Kelly]

Hi Iain.

I remember watching a TV documentary about the famous Scottish broadcaster Ludovic Kennedy a few years ago. In the documentary Ludovic said he once interviewed the former American President John F Kennedy. Before the interview started JFK asked Ludo if he was an Irish Kennedy. Ludo told JFK that he was a Scottish Kennedy and that he had no connections with Ireland. I got the impression listening to Ludovic Kennedy that the Scottish Kennedy family and the Irish Kennedy family were in NO way related. They just happened to share the same surname!

My understanding is that the Scottish Kennedys are a Lowland Scottish family originating in the Dumfries and Galloway area of southwest Scotland. Ludovic is descended from this family. The Irish Kennedys are a Gaelic Irish family originating in the Leinster and Munster Provinces in the south of Ireland. President Kennedy is descended from that family.

Incidentally, I understand Kennedy is also a common surname in the north of Ireland - Ulster - and most of the Ulster Kennedys are descendants of 17th century Lowland Scottish Protestant Planters from Ayrshire, Dumfries and Galloway.

I am interested to read that you are a Kennedy originating from the Scottish Highlands and that you have the Niall Y chromosome. I am sure that some of the Dalriadic Scoti from the north of Ireland must have brought the Niall Y chromosome to the Scottish Highlands in the 6th century.

Iain, is there a Highland Scottish Kennedy family and are they related to the Lowland Scottish Kennedy family? Given what I understand about the ethnic origins of the Lowland Scots, I think it is highly unlikely that the Lowland Scottish Kennedy family carries the Niall Y chromosome in its male lineage. I know that following the Highland Clearances, quite a number of Lowland Scottish families (including probably some Kennedys) were relocated to the Highlands in an attempt to 'Anglify' the Highlands and rid it of its Gaelic language and culture. It is also possible that some indigenous Highland Scottish families adopted Lowland Scottish surnames such as Kennedy during those years when Highland/Gaelic culture was being suppressed. Being an expert on the Kennedy surname, I would love to hear what you have to say.

Finally, I understand that the Niall Y chromosome is not commonly found in indigenous Highland Scotsmen. The majority of indigenous Highlanders are of Pictish (and Viking) descent in their male lineage as opposed to Dalriadic Scottish descent (of which you appear to be.)

Did you manage to attend the talk on Dalriada in Ayr?

Look forward to hearing from you.


Paul

This post has been edited by Paul Kelly: 16th Dec 2006, 08:23am

[Paul Kelly]

In an earlier post, I was discussing the Scottish mercenary Gallowglass soldiers from the Western Highlands and Islands (mainly Argyll and the Inner Hebrides - the area of Scotland formerly known as Dalriada - ) who went to fight in Ireland in the 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th centuries.

I just want to add that the Gallowglasses who went to Ireland in the 16th century to fight in the armies of the O'Neills and the O'Donnells in Counties Tyrone and Donegal were sometimes referred to as Redshanks because of their practice of going bare legged.

[Paul Kelly]

In post #5, I mentioned that there were around 20 Scottish Catholic Gallowglass families from the Western Highlands and Islands of Scotland that settled permanently in Ireland (mainly Ulster) in the 14th/15th/16th centuries before the late 16th century Scottish Reformation. I have been researching a bit more about the Gallowglasses and I want to clarify a few things.

The following 10 Galloglas surnames are now considered to be purely Irish surnames. People in Glasgow/Scotland today with these 10 surnames are almost certainly descendants of 19th century Catholic Irish immigrants to Scotland.

Sweeney (originally McSweeney) (Donegal), Coll (originally McColla) (Donegal), McFadden (not to be be confused with the Scottish surname of McFadyen) (Donegal), McCallion (Donegal/Derry), McRory or McCrory (often Anglicised to Rogers/Rodgers) (Derry/Tyrone), McSorley (Tyrone), McGirr (often Anglicised to Short or Shortt) (Tyrone/Armagh), McCabe (Cavan/Monaghan), McGreal (Mayo), Sheehy (originally McSheehy) (Munster)

While some of the Derry/Tyrone McRorys are of Gallowglass origins, the other Derry/Tyrone McRorys are actually descended from a native Gaelic Irish family with the same name.

The next set of 9 Gallowglass surnames are still obviously considered to be Scottish surnames.

Campbell, McNeill, McAllister, McDonald (usually spelt McDonnell in Ireland), McDougall (usually spelt McDowell in Ireland), McCallum (usually spelt McCollum in Ireland), McLean (sometimes spelt McClean in Ireland), McIntyre (sometimes spelt McAteer in Ireland), McAuley (sometimes spelt McCauley in Ireland)

There are Catholics in Ulster today with these 9 surnames who are descendants of 15th century Galloglass settlers. There are also Protestants in Ulster today with these 9 surnames who are descendants of 17th century Scottish Planters. While some of the Catholic Campbells, McCauleys (McAuleys), McAteers (McIntyres) and McCollums in Ulster are of Galloglas origins, the other Catholic Campbells, McCauleys, McAteers and McCollums in Ulster are actually descended from native Gaelic Irish families with the same names. While some of the Protestant McDowells in Ulster are descendants of 17th century Scottish McDougall Planters from Argyll, most of the Protestant McDowells in Ulster are actually descendants of 17th century Scottish McDowall Planters from Galloway. The Catholic McDowells in Ulster are all descendants of 15th century Scottish McDougall Gallowglasses from Argyll and some of the Catholic McDowells changed their surnames to Doyle. Lastly, a significant minority of the people in the Glasgow area today with these 9 surnames are descendants of 19th century Irish immigrants.

By the start of the 17th century (c1600), the number of Scottish Catholic Galloglas mercenary soldiers going to fight in Ireland was in decline, partly because of the Scottish Reformation in the late 1500s. At the beginning of the 17th century, most Scottish Highlanders had become or were becoming Protestants. The Scottish Lowlands were already completely Protestant by the start of the 17th century.

In the first half of the 17th century many British (predominantly Scottish) Protestants were planted in Ulster. Most of these Protestant Planters were from the Scottish Lowlands, particularly Ayrshire, Renfrewhire, Lanarkshire, Galloway, Dumfries and the Borders. In addition, some of the Protestant Planters were from the southern Scottish Highlands, particularly Stirlingshire, Argyll and Kintyre and from the north of England.

The last Scottish Catholic Gallowglass soldier to go and fight in Ireland was Alasdair MacColla in the 1640s. MacColla had been born in the early 1600s on the remote Dalriadic island of Colonsay in the Inner Hebrides off the coast of Argyll. If you do a GOOGLE search for him you will see he was a man who relished warfare. MacColla actually played a major role in the slaughter of some of the 17th century Scottish Protestant Planters in Ulster.

See post #81 of this topic for an updated discussion of Scottish Gallowglass families in Ireland.

This post has been edited by GG: 12th Jan 2009, 10:45am

[Iain Kennedy]

Paul,

Yes Ludovic is a 4th cousin of the Kennedy clan chief. You are correct that there is no connection between the Irish and Scottish Kennedies in the traditional genealogy sense. It is starting to look like the Scottish Kennedy main lines are from the 'North west Irish' DNA group which some claim started off in Co. Donegal. The data is open to a certain amount of interpretation. If so then they most likely arrived in Scotland long before the Kennedy surname was adopted in either country so there is no disrepancy.

There is a Highland branch of the Kennedies. According to clan histories it was established as an offshoot in the sixteenth century after an Ayrshire Kennedy fled there. He sought protection from Lochiel and hence they became a sept of Clan Cameron. Confusingly, not long afterwards some of the same people also joined the MacDonalds of Keppoch and so are also considered a sept of Clan Donald. Genealogist Donald Whyte has written that they had started fanning out from Lochaber into north west Perthshire where my own family come from in the mid sixteenth century but I haven't managed to confirm this. I have closely matched the DNA of an Ayrshire Kennedy so to date, everything fits.

It is true that Galloway was not part of Dal Riata. However we have tested one of the landed Kennedy families of Ayrshire and it has the Niall markers.

Since I last posted, Professor Bryan Sykes' book 'Blood of the Isles' has come out. He has studied DNA across Scotland and measured the influx of Dal Riata and the contrast with Pictish DNA. If the subject interests you try and pick up the book - or browse the relevant pages in your local bookshop at least!

Yes I saw Dr. Campbell's talk which was good. It was largely based around his book 'Saints and Sea-kings' which I already have. Again if you are interested, the book is quite cheap and if you give it a read you will have got the lecture, more or less. It wasn't primarily about his theory about the peopling of Dal Riata which has been published elsewhere. Sykes' book came out just after the talk, I mean to write to Campbell about it as it may disprove his theory.


Iain Kennedy
Kennedy study

[Paul Kelly]

Hi Iain.

Thanks for your reply. I would love to gaet a copy of 'Blood of the Isles'. I doubt I will come across it here in Botswana but I will ask my brother to look for it in Glasgow. What does the book have to say? Any new or suprising developments?

I understand that by the mid 6th century the Kingdom of Dal Riata was composed of 2 main subkingdoms: the Northern Irish Dalriada based in Antrim (the original Dal Riada) and the Scottish Dalriada based in Argyll (formed at the start of the 6th century by Scoti immigrants from the north of Ireland). The Scottish Dalriada was made up of 4 minor subkingdoms:

Cenel Loairn (Loch Awe, Lorn/Lorne (Oban, Dunollie, Benderloch))
Cenel nOengusa (Islay, Colonsay)
Cenel Comgaill (Cowal (Dunoon), Bute)
Cenel nGabrain (Kintyre, Knapdale, Dunadd, Arran, Jura)

The Cenel Loairn and the Cenel nGabrain were the more important of these 4 subkingdoms and some historians actually include the Cenel Comgaill and the Cenel Oengusa in the Cenel Gabrain.

To the north and east of Scottish Dalriada were the Picts. To the southeast of Scottish Dalriada were the Britons and Angles. During the 7th and 8th centuries the Cenel Loairn expanded their territories northwards, seizing control of the Pictish territories of Appin and Lochaber, including Morvern, Ardnamurchan, Glenfinnan, Glen Coe, Ardgour, Morar, Sunart, Moidart, Knoydart and the Isle of Mull. Between the 6th and 9th centuries there was constant warfare between the Angles, Britons, Picts and Dalriadic Scoti. The coming of the Vikings in the 9th century led to the 'absorption' of the Picts by the Scoti (even though it is estimated that the Picts outnumbered the Scoti by at least 5 to 1). At this time, the Cenel Loairn expanded their territories even further north by migrating up the Great Glen to Inverness and Moray (lands occupied by Picts) and the Cenel nGabrain expanded their territories eastwards into Stirlingshire and Perthshire (lands also occupied by Picts). In the 10th century some Cenel nGabrain even expanded southwards into Ayrshire, Lanarkshire and Lothian (lands occupied by Britons and Angles).

Given that some of the Dalriadic Scoti from the north of Ireland probably brought the Niall Y chromosome to the Argyll region of Scotland at the start of the 6th century, I suspect that these later movements of the Cenel Loairn and Cenel nGabrain in the 9th and 10th centuries probably account for the Niall Y chromosome showing up in some unlikely parts of Scotland.

Paul

[lindamac]

I have just read these 3 pages of extremely interesting Historical facts of Scotland/Names etc & felt fair nourished & somewhat intrigued in the awesome depth in which these few men have gone ,My deepest respect to you all & I appreciate your information very much cheers Guys

[Paul Kelly]

In an earlier post I said there were around 20 Gallowglass families from the western Highlands and Islands of Scotland that settled permanently in Ireland in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries. Recently, I have been trying to find out where exactly in Scotland these Galloglas families originated. It seems that most - if not all - of these families came from southern Argyll (Arran, Bute, Islay, Jura, Colonsay, Gigha, Knapdale, Kintyre), mid Argyll (Loch Awe area), and possibly Mull and Lorn/Lorne (North Argyll area including Oban). There were certainly no Gallowglass families coming from north of Mull and Lorn.

So it seems the Gallowglasses came from the south west Highlands and Islands of Scotland, the part of Scotland which was formerly known as Dalriada. In fact, the majority of the Gallowglasses came from the islands - the southern Inner Hebridean islands off the coast of Argyll.

[KiwiScoti]

Hi Paul,

Any idea where specifically the 'Sweeney' Gallowglasses originated from in the Highlands/Western Isles ?

And were they 'Suibhne' then ?

Would you believe it, we spent some time around Loch Awe, without being aware of our connections to the area, and also have had family presence on Islay.

many thanks,

Sean

[Paul Kelly]

Hi Sean.

I understand the Sweeneys came from the Loch Sween area in Knapdale (northern part of the Kintyre peninsula), Southern Argyll. Loch Sween is to the immediate east of the Sound of Jura. It is a very beautiful part of Scotland.

There is evidence that the Sweeney family had been staying in Knapdale since at least the 11th century. They built Castle Sween on the banks of Loch Sween. They were banished from Scotland in the early 14th century by Robert the Bruce and relocated en masse as Gallowglasses to the Fanad Peninsula in northern Donegal. The surname died out in Scotland with their relocation to Donegal. However the Sweeney surname was reintroduced into Scotland in the 19th century by Irish immigrants from mainly Donegal. Sweeney is considered to be an Irish (Donegal) surname. I think 'Suibhne' must be the spelling of the surname in both Irish and Scottish Gaelic.

It is speculated that the Sweeney family came originally from Donegal before settling in Knapdale, so you could say the Sweeneys were returning to their ancestral home of Donegal in the 14th century as Gallowglasses.

Paul