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> Did Tories Kill 25,000 Glaswegians?, New research points to lethal political attack
benny
post 24th Jun 2011, 08:35pm
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Firstly, I have to say that I consider the poll itself to be badly worded. I certainly believe that Thatcherite policies had a harmful effect on many working class British families, but I can't honestly agree that I consider them to be directly responsible for the deaths of 25,000 Glaswegians.

It seems obvious to me that the deprivation which followed on the mass redundancies of the 80's must have had an effect on the health of those subjected to it, but that is a different matter from saying that it was directly responsible for 25,000 deaths.

In a situation of dire poverty, which many experienced in the 80's, it isn't always a matter of personal choice determining lifestyle. For someone on a very limited income, burgers and chips is a much more attractive option than a healthier type meal, because it is more affordable. In a cheap supermarket like Aldi, even today, you can buy a large bag of frozen chips for 99p - cheaper than a tray of apples, or a bag of oranges. For someone with 2 or 3 kids to feed, the cheaper option is often the only otpion.


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Ken
post 24th Jun 2011, 09:20pm
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This contribution is to Glasgow Guide, what a slurry tanker is to 'meals on wheels.'
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GG
post 24th Jun 2011, 11:10pm
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QUOTE (benny @ 24th Jun 2011, 08:28pm) *
... It seems obvious to me that the deprivation which followed on the mass redundancies of the 80's must have had an effect on the health of those subjected to it, but that is a different matter from saying that it was directly responsible for 25,000 deaths. ...

Benny, thanks for your comment, I hope to reply to a couple of aspects of your post over the weekend, unfortunately don't have the time just now. However, what I 'd like to say is that the report is actually about how deprivation is becoming less relevant to the worsening health and increasing mortality equation in Glasgow (during 80s and 90s) ... or as the report introduction says "[it's about] the weakening causal link between deprivation and life expectancy". In fact, some social scientists have been able to remove deprivation from the equation altogether and show that the 'Glasgow' effect can be found in places such as Milngavie and, dare I say it, Bearsden!

GG.


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Macbeast
post 25th Jun 2011, 09:18am
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It's a bit much to say or imply that the Conservative Government followed a deliberate policy of ethnic cleansing. But I've noticed before that GG's headlines betray a tendentious nature where the Tories are concerned.
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*big al*
post 25th Jun 2011, 10:06am
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I'd 'hypothesise' that the research makes for an interesting - if certainly controversial - point of view by one group of academics who appear to approach this thorny subject from a certain angle. Does anyone know of any other research into the 'Glasgow Effect' which introduces an alternative explanation to the one put forward here?
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kentzo
post 25th Jun 2011, 12:58pm
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I always knew London government was robbin' us.

I just didn't realise it was also killing us. mad.gif

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kentzo
post 25th Jun 2011, 05:33pm
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And, of course, with current government policy, (due to a banking system collapse that is fully attributable to greedy London), targeting the more vulnerable members of our community, and the true impact of the Greek collapse on the UK yet to be revealed, can we expect another 25,000 ‘excess’ deaths in Glasgow?
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wombat
post 25th Jun 2011, 11:32pm
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if yie keep people down long enough they wont want tae live.ah'm thinkin the deaths rates wid be simlar elsewhere in any city among the underpriveleged, too many regulations/restrictions these day's,too many so called"authorities" wee hitler clones wie badges,some wie guns that yie widny trust wie a blunt knife.


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Dunvegan
post 26th Jun 2011, 04:37am
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The relative rates of heart malfunctions due to poor diet has been well documented in many countries apart from Scotland. The one factor common to all is the disparity in health in the lower socio economic groupings. As one poster pointed out a bag of chips is cheaper than a bag of apples. It has been documented in the past that 44% of Scottish males do not eat fresh fruit or vegetables. It would appear from this that it is not only a socio economic problem but one of complacency and lack of effort in supplying nutritional meals. There is a problem with obesity from bad diet in Australia, this being attributed to inadequate diets in the lower socio economic groups. Due to the plenitude of fresh fruit and vegetables, cheap meat (we are talking about "budget cuts", stewing beef, pork and chicken) there is only one explanation apparent to me : McDonalds, Kentucky fried, fish and chip shops, and all the easy ways out. Jamie Oliver tried to show the way with quick nutritional school meals and to his own terrible disappointment was rejected by the majority of kids weaned on quick fried garbage.
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Dunvegan
post 26th Jun 2011, 04:39am
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QUOTE (kentzo @ 25th Jun 2011, 10:51pm) *
I always knew London government was robbin' us.

I just didn't realise it was also killing us. mad.gif

During the 1680/90s one fith of Scotlands poulation died of starvation. This after the Union of the crowns.
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ionnsaigh
post 26th Jun 2011, 01:53pm
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QUOTE (Melody @ 24th Jun 2011, 08:30am) *
How's the revolution going? Mind give me a shout when it is time for me to command the troops because The Revolution Will Not Be Televised. laugh.gif

The worldwide revolution has begun....... the troops will pick commanders, from their own ranks.
( based loosely on the Spanish Civil War model )
It's being televised, however they all call it protests.
Better tae die oan yer feet,
Than live oan yer knees forever. wink.gif


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GG
post 26th Jun 2011, 10:22pm
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Hi Benny,

Please see my reply earlier about the deindustrialisation and deprivation aspects of your post.

Regarding:
QUOTE (benny @ 24th Jun 2011, 08:28pm) *
Firstly, I have to say that I consider the poll itself to be badly worded. I certainly believe that Thatcherite policies had a harmful effect on many working class British families, but I can't honestly agree that I consider them to be directly responsible for the deaths of 25,000 Glaswegians.

I'd accept, naturally, that the wording is open to improvement; perhaps I should have included the phrase "political attack" in the question, rather than "unduly harsh"? This would have allowed for a more direct questioning of one of the main conclusions of the report, that:

QUOTE
"From 1980 onwards the mortality pattern changed and this seems most likely to be attributable to the changed political context, produced by neoliberal political attack, and the consequent hopelessness and community disruption experienced in Scotland and Glasgow."

My question was:
QUOTE
Do you think that Tory policies towards Glasgow in the 80s and 90s were unduly harsh, resulting in the premature deaths of thousands of Glaswegians?

In your case, I think you would have voted 'no' to either wording?

GG.


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GG
post 26th Jun 2011, 10:42pm
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QUOTE (Dunvegan @ 26th Jun 2011, 04:30am) *
... As one poster pointed out a bag of chips is cheaper than a bag of apples. It has been documented in the past that 44% of Scottish males do not eat fresh fruit or vegetables. It would appear from this that it is not only a socio economic problem but one of complacency and lack of effort in supplying nutritional meals. ... Jamie Oliver tried to show the way with quick nutritional school meals and to his own terrible disappointment was rejected by the majority of kids weaned on quick fried garbage.

Hi Dunvegan,

I'd totally agree with you that the diet of Glaswegians is very poor, in general. Glasgow City Council has tried to address the problem in Glasgow via a number of initiatives, e.g. by offering more nutritious school meals and even locking pupils in schools at lunchtime. While earlier attempts by the council have had mixed success, it's still too early to judge the 'locking in' development, as it was only started with first years in a few schools last year. That said, I seem to remember that the kids were ordering in fast food meals and having the delivery man deliver them through the school fence!

Here's what the report had to say about the diet hypothesis:
QUOTE
Evidence – diet

Shelton, using the Scottish Health Survey and the English Health Survey did not find that regional variations in: fruit & vegetable consumption; smoking; obesity; or diabetes were consistently able to explain variations in mortality (with the exception of obesity and mortality in women). Gray analysed the Scottish Health Survey and found that much of the unhealthy diet evident in Glasgow as compared to the rest of Scotland could be accounted for by markers of deprivation (including area-based measures and individual measures) although some aspects of diet related to vegetable intake in men and butter and salt in women were not. A direct comparison of healthy eating (measured as self-reported eating of five or more portions of fruit/vegetables per day) in Greater Glasgow, Liverpool and Manchester shows very similar rates and therefore casts doubt on diet being an important explanatory factor for differences in mortality. A similar pattern is witnessed for adult obesity prevalence.

In terms of poor diet, as you mentioned, this is largely due to deprivation. In terms of the 'Glasgow Effect', poor diet is, therefore, not a significant factor, as Glasgow has similar levels to Liverpool and Manchester.

GG.


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*Anne Bloom*
post 26th Jun 2011, 10:43pm
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I agree with several respondents that there is something in the report that rings true with my experiences of what is a very difficult period in my own personal life and also the history of Glasgow. To what extent the outcomes were a deliberate policy propagated by a nasty Conservative government I do not know. Perhaps in 50 years time there will be previously secret papers released which will show that the Heath and Thatcher governments did plan such an outcome? By then it will be too late. I'd say let's not sink into culture of blame, instead let's look forward as best we can and make the most of what we have in Glasgow.
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Dunvegan
post 27th Jun 2011, 01:49am
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School canteens in NSW. have stopped serving any instances of "fast food" confectionery and sugar intensive beverages. I can only give anecdotal evidence about the high schools in my immediate vicinity. The high school on my street has abolished for years now, the above mentioned foods. The rates of obesity are marked in contrast with the schools I worked in in the lower socio economics groupings in the inner city. They also have an extensive sports program that excludes students who who do not conform to school principals or in class disciplines. I have noticed how ever that after school, some congregate round the take away and confectionery shop before going home for tea. That would appear to be, as far as kids are concerned "the nature of the beast" and is not so widespread an activity as in other inner city environments. Nutritional and physical education is for youth as important as academic achievement. Education is a key factor in the reduction of the "modern self afflicted diseases" and although for some the horse has already bolted, there is less reason to stop trying than there is to keep ingnoring the problem as it will not go away.
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