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Glasgow Boards/Forums _ Glasgow News Blog _ Independence Day?

Posted by: GG 13th Sep 2014, 10:29am

It's now only a few days until we go to the polls to vote for or against independence for Scotland. The electioneering activities of both Yes Scotland and Better Together reach a climax this weekend, with Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon calling today the "biggest campaign day in Scottish political history". As we head towards what will be a momentous day for the country, I thought we might take another poll of voting intentions*, asking the same question which will be put to the people of Scotland on 18 September 2014.

Also, please share your thoughts on why you will (or would) vote Yes or No. In posting a reply please consider your thoughts on some of the following points:

  1. What is the single most important issue?
  2. Have you been swayed by one side?
  3. Have you been impressed by any politicians?
  4. Has the media reporting of the referendum been fair?
  5. Will the result have a long term effect on how we live?
  6. Do you just want it all to be over?
I've produced a short video just to remind us all that we have a beautiful country, and that we should not let fear get in the way of what we think is best for Scotland.


This topic is not meant to replace the extensive http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=25096, but is, rather, intended to capture in a non-judgemental and non-argumentative way a snapshot of members' observations, reflections and thoughts as we approach the referendum.

* Our poll is for everyone, so you can vote in the poll even though you are a Glaswegian who is currently living overseas. (The poll can't be accessed on iPads, sorry.)

Update: embedded poll stopped working on Monday! Stats then were:

Yes: 259 Votes (55%) // No: 215 Votes (45%)


GG.

Posted by: Dave Grieve 13th Sep 2014, 10:39am

Just to say that if I lived in Scotland I would vote YES, but as I don't I dont think its fair that I take part in this poll.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 13th Sep 2014, 11:24am

I too am an ex-pat but I was also an ex-pat while serving overseas in the RAF so the term is a relative mute point for me: I can only ever be a Scotsman away from home who's nationalty has never changed.
I would love to see Scotland take the stage as a Nation on her own feet once again and have voted to that effect.
For me the single most important issue has nothing to do with politics or even England; all of my 15 decendents were born in England and likely consider themselves English born and bred more than British, but rather that we, Scotland, were always a separate nation with our own culture, ideas, and outlook. Our beautiful land is unique: it's history and geography impregnated in our hearts. We may share it with all but we cannot give it away because that would be a betrayal.
It was once handed over; lock, stock, barrel and croft to a more powerful nation than we but now with a simple "tick" in the right box our dear land can be returned to us ... even those of us who for whatever reason are not home at this great historical moment.
For me, at least, the other five questions are merely superficial.
I never left Scotland, I just wandered doon the road. Should I come back up the road I hope to come back to a Scotland which the Roman's decided to leave well enough alone. tongue.gif

Posted by: Heather 13th Sep 2014, 11:32am

I ignore all the people that have been brought up to Scotland to tell us how to vote. tongue.gif
Not only do they not live in Scotland, very few of them are Scottish. angry.gif

The NO camp are in a right panic.

Posted by: carmella 13th Sep 2014, 11:38am

I ignore politicians, actors and actresses. I particularly ignore the ones who have decided not to live in Scotland, even though I realize a lot of Scottish actors live elsewhere because they have families and have to be near the action for the careers they have, but feel they are well enough paid to make Scotland their domicile and travel to their shoots etc., or live there for a few months.

Oddly enough I include one of my favourite actors in this, he is terrific and can play almost any part, he is such a brilliant actor. I refer to Brian Cox.

Oh on the subject, has anyone noticed we have heard nothing, zilch from that famed Scottish Actor (I don't like) Sean Connery who over the years was highly vocal.

Posted by: john.mcn 13th Sep 2014, 11:57am

QUOTE (carmella @ 13th Sep 2014, 11:55am) *
Oh on the subject, has anyone noticed we have heard nothing, zilch from that famed Scottish Actor (I don't like) Sean Connery who over the years was highly vocal.

Connery became a hate figure and was often ridiculed by some of his fellow Scots because he did not stay here, those same scots are quite willing to jump on any NO requests from other famous expats and dare i say it, but others who have no link to Scotland at all. Funny that aint it.

Posted by: RedSkywalker 13th Sep 2014, 12:15pm

The problem I have with the whole thing is that the question being asked "should Scotland be an independent country" is irrelevant to reality.

Is the UK an independent country? NO it's not because an independent country controls its own borders which the UK is not allowed to by the EU. Does the UK control its own currency? NO because its tied to the EU and has to comply with EU budgetary requirements. Does it control the fishing rights within its waters - NO; the EU does! Does it have free access to world trade - NO it has to comply with EU tariff arrangements - the UK is deep in thrall to the EU and does not meet any definition of "independent" you want to apply.

If there is a YES vote all that will happen is we will continue to be governed by the EU as now!

Had big Eck offered us the choice of an in\out EU vote if we voted YES I'd be all for true independence but he has his eyes firmly on the EU trough and is determined to get his snout in there. So you lot vote however you want - in the end it makes no difference at all!

Posted by: Dominic271 13th Sep 2014, 12:18pm

As a London-born Glasgow resident of 30 years plus (working in Kabul but heading back in time to vote), whether Scotland can earn enough to pay its way, including for the health service, schools, pensions, etc., has been for me of prime importance. On balance, the answer appears to be pretty even whether it's Yes or No, and I'm not so wedded to Sterling as to worry whether I end up paying bills in Euro, Merks or whatever (though I recognise the challenge for cross-border trade). And the EU, NATO, and Olympics stuff will sort itself out (as it will have to) if there's a Yes decision.

That said, the recent spate of negative statements from business leaders (pretty obviously co-ordinated by the No campaign) hasn't affected me: do I particularly care if a few corrupt bankers up sticks and head south? Neither the celebrity endorsements on either side nor the political messaging has thrilled me (at least, from what I have been able to read from news and other websites). On the whole, I think the BBC's analysis of the economic, social and political issues has been pretty balanced (although over-concerned with the design of a post-Yes vote flag for what's left of the UK).

Overall, the biggest thing that has concerned me has not been the economic or political effect on Scotland, but the effect on the rest of the UK, and particularly whether a Yes vote for Scotland condemns England and Wales to a generation of Cameronian (or Johnsonian) Toryism increasingly affected by UKIP's pub politics (or rather, staggering out of the pub and into the gutter). Or will a Yes vote force the non-Tory rest of the UK to establish a viable political alternative?

The more people tell me how bad everything will be if I vote Yes, the more I am persuaded to do precisely that. Braveheart or Feartie? I think I know where my vote is going on Thursday (and it will be a vote - not an avoidance of the issue by binning the ballot paper).

By the way, not enough rain in the video, and far too many blue skies!

Posted by: gardenqueen 13th Sep 2014, 12:19pm

I don't live in Scotland because, at the time, there was very little work around and plenty in London. I didn't intend to stay in England but, as so often happens, I married here and had my family so ended up living here ever since. I have a lot to thank England for, to be honest, it gave me a good living and my children are, after all, English albeit with Scottish/Irish/Swiss/English heritage. My grandchidren are even more mixed by adding Welsh and Hungarian to their genes. They are proud of all of these links and probably take the best from all. How many of us are ever truly from one heritage?

That doesn't make me any less Scottish in my opinion. I still love going back to Glasgow and always will (if they'll have me, lol) but I don't feel the need to live there to have those experiences.

My father was Irish and was Irish to the end even though he had been living in Glasgow since he was a young man. I think it is the same with anyone who leaves their home country for, e.g. work.

I am not suggesting that people who no longer live in Scotland should have the vote there but I am entitled to my opinions and although these may largely be based on emotional ties, I would be voting "No" if I could. Interestingly, whenever I have spoken to family and friends still living in Glasgow, there is only one person who is voting "Yes".

My life won't change whatever the result but I can see a lot of unrest and turmoil whatever the result.

Posted by: Miggymag 13th Sep 2014, 12:21pm

I am separating after 37 years, and next year relocating back home to Glasgow. Unfortunately I dont have the vote, but it would be a definite YES. For a long time I was NO/Better Together, until I listened to what the Scots had to say about independence, via social media etc. As my fellow Scots draw closer to the polling stations, the campaign may be more about emotion and passion, rather than facts and figures. Whichever way it goes, I’m looking forward to coming home.

1. What is the single most important issue?
::: The opportunity for Scotland to govern her own land.

2. Have you been swayed by one side?
::: The No/Better Together swayed me towards Yes.

3. Have you been impressed by any politicians?
::: Impressed by Sturgeon and Salmond.

4. Has the media reporting of the referendum been fair?
::: With the exception of the BBC, yes.

5. Will the result have a long term effect on how we live?
::: I don’t know.

6. Do you just want it all to be over?
::: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Posted by: *greta* 13th Sep 2014, 12:21pm

Of course I am going to vote yes for the country I love,was born in and have always lived in. No more chattels from London dictating to us, our votes will count in the future, wonder what Bruce and Wallace would think about us even considering anything else.

As for the no campaign ,they should be ashamed of theirselves. They have brought in every kind of threat possible from calling in debts from banks to having threatened us with supermarket chains,all of which is just bloating and badgering. As the large economists agree it will never happen,they could not afford to put prices up, Tesco are already in trouble and Asda have backed down. As for the BBC they are a joke, any institution that threatens in the run up to an independent referendum should be ashamed, looked into and boycotted. We will never have another opportunity to put our families future securely in their hands.

Come on Scotland the Brave.

Posted by: lawrence duff 13th Sep 2014, 12:36pm

I vote yes!

Posted by: carmella 13th Sep 2014, 12:54pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 13th Sep 2014, 01:14pm) *
Connery became a hate figure and was often ridiculed by some of his fellow Scots because he did not stay here, those same scots are quite willing to jump on any NO requests from other famous expats and dare i say it, but others who have no link to Scotland at all. Funny that aint it.

Oh it truly is John. I know he became a hate figure. Don't know currently where he lives, but I know he did not get on with his neighbours in his New York apartment building.

I don't mind anyone having an opinion on this subject, what I do object to is that they and others, think their opinions will sway the Scottish vote. I am my own master (mistress) I decide on my own with no-one's help.

I've enjoyed both the yes and no sides of the arguments on here, and the characters - because the GG certainly has a few of them.

Posted by: Heather 13th Sep 2014, 01:08pm

I have been waiting half my lifetime to vote YES.

I did Scottish History at School, and we were quite literally bought and sold for English gold.

I was speaking to a young woman a few days ago and she did not know that the Scottish people had no say in the Union with England, she thought our ancestors voted for it.
I told her to find a Scottish History book and she will find out that when we the common people found out how we had been sold out, there were riots all over Scotland.

She was un-decided which way to vote, but I think she will now be voting YES.

Posted by: *Sumac* 13th Sep 2014, 01:12pm

Long time no speak! Sorry!

I have, for many years, been pro-Independence. However, when the Referendum Debate gained momentum, I became really uncertain about which way to vote. The main contributor to my uncertainty was the first live TV debate between Alex and Alistair. It was so bad that I watched for only 15 minutes and changed channels. I couldn't believe how unprepared and lacklustre Alex Salmond was. I have never seen Alex so badly prepared. It was awful. However, he has redeemed himself in my view, with the help of wee Nicola. The one thing I keep telling people is that we are not voting for a party or politician, we are voting for Independence, and will be able to vote in to power our own party choice if we gain it, not the choice of England.

Next week I have to vote YES. Scotland is my much-loved home and we CAN make it.

Posted by: Alex Saville 13th Sep 2014, 01:37pm

I have waited all my life for September the 18th.
I will vote 'YES'.
'No' has never been considered.

My reasons for voting 'Yes' are these:-

1/ Never again will Scottish Servicemen/women be brought home in body-bags so that Westminster politicians can posture on world stages and pretend they are a force in the world.

2/ This is my country, and just as Glasgow is my city, I'm proud of them.

3/ I believe, with all my heart, that we will prosper as masters of our own destiny.

4/ The more these Unionist politicians and their puppet business leaders talk down Scots and their country, the more I want to be rid of them.

The 'YES' side have had a raw deal from the press all along the line. When I was at school, the History Teacher said that all through time, the victor has written history.
The press and the media have considered it their duty to tell one side of the story (NO) and ignored the other (YES), only reluctantly had to alter that since last weekend when the 'YES' campaign was in the lead. Now that 'NO' is very slightly in the lead they are back to their old one-sided tricks.
In their arrogance they consider Scots are too stupid to know which way to vote and they consider that they should instruct us on, in their opinion, the correct decision.
Vote 'YES' and damn them all!

Alex


Posted by: chas1937 13th Sep 2014, 01:53pm

My mind was always going to be a NO vote for simple reason that I think we are much better off sharing between 69 million people rather than just under 5 million here is Scotland.
Then when it comes too currency Salmond/Sturgeon can't give a straight answer and saying it will be ok is just a joke.That's like saying to me "here is a bag and there might be something expensive in it or not" so if you give me £10 I will let you see.When you do that the bag is empty so that's what YES campaign is asking.
Then when it comes too all the Crown Properties and Estates where is money going to come too fund either buying them or leasing them back.I will tell you answer too that and it's YOU and ME who will foot the bill and be losers.That's and that's just for starters.Have a read at this and make your mind up.
tl.gd/n_1s9ddc9

Posted by: chas1937 13th Sep 2014, 02:01pm

Might be good idea too read this also as very important as to which way you vote

http://www.cityam.com/1410483959/boost-no-salmond-s-economic-plan-torn-apart

Posted by: john.mcn 13th Sep 2014, 02:11pm

Might just be as important to google https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Institute+for+Fiscal+studies&oq=Institute+for+Fiscal+studies&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=institute+for+fiscal+studies+political+bias before taking their view as impartial.

Posted by: jintyg 13th Sep 2014, 02:14pm

I've lived here all of my 66 years
though not in Glasgow I'm from Port Glasgow
I thought about emigrating when my family were young I didn't have the courage back then and couldny leave my wee Mum & Dad
so I stayed now I think my courage has grown through the years and we do need change so I'm voting YES !!!!

Posted by: petunia 13th Sep 2014, 02:15pm

QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 13th Sep 2014, 12:41pm) *
I too am an ex-pat but I was also an ex-pat while serving overseas in the RAF so the term is a relative mute point for me: I can only ever be a Scotsman away from home who's nationalty has never changed.
I would love to see Scotland take the stage as a Nation on her own feet once again and have voted to that effect.
For me the single most important issue has nothing to do with politics or even England; all of my 15 decendents were born in England and likely consider themselves English born and bred more than British, but rather that we, Scotland, were always a separate nation with our own culture, ideas, and outlook. Our beautiful land is unique: it's history and geography impregnated in our hearts. We may share it with all but we cannot give it away because that would be a betrayal.
It was once handed over; lock, stock, barrel and croft to a more powerful nation than we but now with a simple "tick" in the right box our dear land can be returned to us ... even those of us who for whatever reason are not home at this great historical moment.
For me, at least, the other five questions are merely superficial.
I never left Scotland, I just wandered doon the road. Should I come back up the road I hope to come back to a Scotland which the Roman's decided to leave well enough alone. tongue.gif

I am also born and bred Glasgow and proud to tell anyone that asks so think you put my perspective on the referendum into the forefront for me, thanks.

Posted by: ElliotShinwell 13th Sep 2014, 02:16pm

QUOTE (RedSkywalker @ 13th Sep 2014, 12:32pm) *
The problem I have with the whole thing is that the question being asked "should Scotland be an independent country" is irrelevant to reality.

Is the UK an independent country? NO it's not because an independent country controls its own borders which the UK is not allowed to by the EU. Does the UK control its own currency? NO because its tied to the EU and has to comply with EU budgetary requirements. Does it control the fishing rights within its waters - NO; the EU does! Does it have free access to world trade - NO it has to comply with EU tariff arrangements - the UK is deep in thrall to the EU and does not meet any definition of "independent" you want to apply.

If there is a YES vote all that will happen is we will continue to be governed by the EU as now!

Had big Eck offered us the choice of an in\out EU vote if we voted YES I'd be all for true independence but he has his eyes firmly on the EU trough and is determined to get his snout in there. So you lot vote however you want - in the end it makes no difference at all!

I think you are absolutely correct, The UK as a whole should remove itself from the EU Then we can be a truly independent nation.

Posted by: carmella 13th Sep 2014, 02:29pm

I have agreed with Red too, but over on the Scottish Independence thread.

As long as we are in the EU there is no independence, for me independence means being totally independent of another country's rules and regulations imposed upon us.

Posted by: Hutchieclan 13th Sep 2014, 03:03pm

I have already voted NO by postal vote.

I have listened to all the debates, read the white paper and came to the following conclusion.

lThe SNP have one reason for existence, to gain independence for the Scottish nation. Why then, in a white paper of 150 pages, did they only devote one page of figures outlining the financial case for independence. Could it be that they were unprepared, or is it that even they cannot come up with a reasonable business case for separation? The few figures they did produce were based on oil revenues at an inflated price per barrel. No real explanation was given on how Scotland would raise revenues to fund the Health Service, free university tuition, pensions etc. The only fiscal policy they have outlined is a reduction in business tax.

Alex Salmond asks us to trust him. He states that a vote for Yes is the only way we can ensure that we get a government we elect. This from the man who joined forces with the Tories and consigned Scotland to 18 years of Thatcherism. If he cared about the "Sovereign Will of the Scottish People" he would have supported the party that the vast majority of Scots voted for in that election, i.e. the Labour Party. Instead he chose to support the party which best suited his interests.

How can we trust the future of our nation to such a man?

The yes campaign has degenerated to bullying tactics and asking people to vote with the heart,. rather than presenting a solid case to encourage voters to their view.If this is the best they can come up with, the proposition is fundamentally flawed.



Posted by: Guest 13th Sep 2014, 03:08pm

Saor Alba!


Posted by: *Kenny Hill* 13th Sep 2014, 03:13pm

I will vote YES. I have never been happy that we here in Scotland are dictated to by successive Tory AND Labour goverments who have no real grasp of the issues important to the Scottish people.

The more I see of Cameron..Clegg and Milliband scurrying around Scotland pleading and begging for us to vote no......the more I know I have made the correct decision.Have they no shame at all?

The three of them together could not make one decent leader of a country. It is little wonder the UK is in the state it is currently in.

I also think the bully boy tactics of the NO campaign is nothing short of evil......trying to scare the people of Scotland into thinking that if the YES vote were to win this referendum life as we know it in Scotland will end. If the No's do get the vote...look out for knighthoods being granted to the top men in Asda UK...Scottish Widows and Weir pumps for services rendered.

If things are Better Together...then why arent we "better" now? We have been "together" 300 years.

John Lewis tell us prices may go up....?....Memo to John Lewis....most of us cant afford to shop there anyway...so do your worst.

Cameron misses the point entirely......this is not some rash decisioning based on a love of our Scottish heritage and a wish to live in a tartan clad utopia.....it's case of gradually being ground down and dismissed by westminster on every issue important to the every day people of Scotland. It's a case of enough is enough. Bob Dylan said it best....When you got nuthin...You got nothin to lose.....and we are there now....we have "nuthin".....and the only thing a NO vote will bring us is more of the same. Enough is enough.

Posted by: The Bankie 13th Sep 2014, 03:20pm

OK
Let’s get the pub quiz out of the way and see what kind of replies I can generate.

First the background.
I am Scottish, no doubt, no If or but, although since I was born in Old Kilpatrick district on March 17th I MIGHT just get dual nationality.
At the age of 15 I joined the Royal Navy and set off on my grand tour. At the age of 20 I married a Yorkshire girl and on my discharge from the R.N. we settled in Bradford as we were guaranteed a council house there and there was plenty of work.
Had there been any work in Scotland it would have been the choice for both of us. Over the years family developments mean that resettlement would be difficult but not out of the question.

So on to the questions:-
1) Single most important issue?
Why are the Westminster politicians so opposed to Scottish independence if we are such a lame duck as the No campaign claim us to be. Have you EVER heard of a politician doing something for altruistic reasons? Ask the locals round here, many are jealous of the opportunity Scotland has and some even think independence should start at the southernmost border of Yorkshire. They are even willing to take Lancashire with them.
2) Have I been swayed by one side?
No! Both sides are populated by raging political bigots trying to arrange things to their advantage. The only hope we have is that if there is a yes vote the SNP disintegrates into various parties to reflect the various views of the voters.
3) Have I been impressed by any politician?
Only negatively. See above.
Has the media reporting been fair?
4) By swallowing ALL the propaganda and hysterically and rabidly regurgitating it as “news” it has managed to cover everything from Westminster threats to alien abduction without saying ANYTHING informative. So yes it has been fair.
5) Will it have any long term affects on how we live?
Of course it will! But we will need to wait till about 2024 to see what they were.
6) Do I just want it to be over?
7) Yes, Yes! YES! Regardless of the outcome it will be the will of the people and should be adhered to. Although in the case of a no vote Salmond and Co will start making plans for the 2024 independence campaign.

Westminster really has no idea that this will not go away. The devolution vote came back and bit them and has led to this situation and in the event of a no vote the same will happen again, and again and again. Anyway I see it as giving England their independence.

Probably not how you see it but the opinions asked for were mine and you are free to examine them and judge them on how you see their merits. Please note: no scare or bullying tactics in the entire message.

Regards
The Bankie


Posted by: john.mcn 13th Sep 2014, 03:32pm

QUOTE (Hutchieclan @ 13th Sep 2014, 03:20pm) *
Alex Salmond asks us to trust him. He states that a vote for Yes is the only way we can ensure that we get a government we elect. This from the man who joined forces with the Tories and consigned Scotland to 18 years of Thatcherism. If he cared about the "Sovereign Will of the Scottish People" he would have supported the party that the vast majority of Scots voted for in that election, i.e. the Labour Party. Instead he chose to support the party which best suited his interests.

How can we trust the future of our nation to such a man?

Alex salmond became an MP in 1985, that is some years after Thatcher was voted into power. As for the vote of no confidence in 1979 i would recommend actually reading up on it because frankly it's getting tiresome the amount of ignorance around this issue.
The Tories were voted in democratically, largely by those people elsewhere in the UK that you think we should be in a political union with.
Through the years i have heard Labour supporters pile hatred and all sorts on Salmond, my response to them was you hate him simply because he is bloody good at what he does and that he is not a member of the Labour party...shuts them right up because it's true.

PS i dont trust the future of the nation to him, i trust the future of the Nation to the people here voting..

Posted by: Guest 13th Sep 2014, 04:04pm

Being of Scottish origin, I will be extremely saddened if Salmond gets his wishes and Scotland vote for independence.
As has been mentioned in previous posts, anyone that disagrees with Salmond is being shouted down, and in some cases facing abuse or vandalism of their property, which is a sad state of affairs, and, whoever wins, almost half the nation will lose, which sort of defeats Salmond's argument that Scots don't get the government that they voted for!
Whichever way it goes, almost half of Scotland will have voted the other way, based on current polls!!!
I have watched the debates (more like shouting matches) with interest, and have yet to hear the Plan A and Plan B monetary policies that Alex Salmond keeps referring to, has anyone else got a clue?
In most of the interviews and debates, he has been making snide and sarcastic comments whilst his opponent has been trying to answer his questions, and not actually allowing those responses to be heard, and also inferring that anyone that disagrees with him is "anti-Scottish".
The man is a disgrace, and if he gets his way, I'm afraid that Scotland will be in big trouble.
He wants independence from England, but will happily use the pound, which is controlled by, let me think, er, The Bank of England!
That means quite simply that England will still have total control over Scotland's money.
If, however, he applies for, and by some miracle gains. mem,bership of the EU, then Scotland will not be independent, as Brussels will control not only the financial affairs of Scotland, but also it's laws and employment/human rights regulations.
He talks in one moment about creating jobs for the 8,000 or so on the Clyde submarine base, and in the next, he is saying that he is going to encourage economic immigration by basically throwing open the border to foreigners.
Now, forgive me if I sound stupid, but surely it would be a better option to create and fill those jobs from within the Scottish population first, or, as in other parts of Europe, the migrants will get the jobs as they are more prepared to work on the absolute minimum wage?
If he does open the door to increased immigration, then that would be contrary to existing plans for the UK, and would require some kind of border control between Scotland and England, or they will simply all come in via the open back door!
I really hope that people see sense and forget their Bravehearts and listen to their Brave Heads!

Posted by: Guest 13th Sep 2014, 04:10pm

QUOTE
As for the vote of no confidence in 1979 i would recommend actually reading up on it because frankly it's getting tiresome the amount of ignorance around this issue.

I certainly feel no need to read up on the circumstances leading up to the election of Margaret Thatcher in 1979 as I am well aware of them, having been a taxpayer and a voter in Scotland at the time.

The vote of no confidence in Callaghan's Labour Government was a cynical betrayal of the Scottish working class by the Nationalists in their ruthless and single-minded pursuit of their political ambition. No Nationalist attempt to rewrite history can change or even sanitise that plain fact.

Posted by: pumps100 13th Sep 2014, 04:16pm

I am a Yes. Brought up with Labour instilled anti-nationalist position. Irvine Welch explains much better than I am capable of writing.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/09/08/labour-pains-labour-of-love/

Regards

Ian


Posted by: bilbo.s 13th Sep 2014, 04:55pm

Judging by how the poll is going, there must be a lot of GG YES supporters out on the streets of Glasgow today. unsure.gif

Posted by: carmella 13th Sep 2014, 05:16pm

Anyone who knows me in my personal life, and anyone who knows me just through my posts here on the GG, will know that I'm not into celebrities, and particularly with the few who have come to Scotland to share with us how they think we should vote - I don't pay attention to them, and it wouldn't matter to me what they thought I should do, or for the most part what their opinions are.

I am, however, a big Brian Cox fan, he is a superb actor and spends a great deal of his time in Scotland, its a place he visits a lot, not only for work and documentaries.

He is a very intelligent man, apart from a great actor who seems to be able to do a great job of any part he undertakes.

I stumbled upon this video and watched it this afternoon. It only enforces for me what a deep thinker the man is.

Hope you enjoy.


Posted by: john.mcn 13th Sep 2014, 05:46pm

QUOTE (Guest @ 13th Sep 2014, 04:27pm) *
I certainly feel no need to read up on the circumstances leading up to the election of Margaret Thatcher in 1979 as I am well aware of them, having been a taxpayer and a voter in Scotland at the time.

The vote of no confidence in Callaghan's Labour Government was a cynical betrayal of the Scottish working class by the Nationalists in their ruthless and single-minded pursuit of their political ambition. No Nationalist attempt to rewrite history can change or even sanitise that plain fact.


Nothing to do with Labour going against the working class of Scotland by not enacting the Scotland act that the majority of electorate voted for then..No rewriting of the history books there, the facts are the SNP did what they did because of Labours betrayal to the people of Scotland... simple fact and not my opinion.

Of course as being around at that time you would also know that the labour government had been in power since 1974 and would have needed to call for a general election, so the vote of no confidence probably just sped up their removal by a few months.. ahh but you say, they could have turned around public opinion and saved their skins...err not after the winter of discontent, this caused labour to be in opposition and not the apparent brainwashing of the English public by the SNP to vote against labour.. Labour has NO ONE to blame for their 18 years in the wilderness but themselves.

Posted by: mustard 13th Sep 2014, 05:58pm

Scotland cannot and must not lose their nerve now and vote YES. We have already been warned by the deviants in Westminster what penalties they will impose on us for having our own thoughts and voice in the event of a NO vote. Think we got it bad now? YES is the only way forward. Sam

Posted by: wilma McDonald 13th Sep 2014, 06:06pm

There is no doubt in my mind that Scotland CAN and should be an independent nation. This is our one opportunity. It will never happen again. Fear should never prevent you from making a decision. In this case there is little to fear.

Posted by: carmella 13th Sep 2014, 06:09pm

I don't think anyone has yet answered my question about the currency issue - very very important.


Posted by: bilbo.s 13th Sep 2014, 06:15pm

QUOTE (mustard @ 13th Sep 2014, 08:15pm) *
Scotland cannot and must not lose their nerve now and vote YES. We have already been warned by the deviants in Westminster what penalties they will impose on us for having our own thoughts and voice in the event of a NO vote. Think we got it bad now? YES is the only way forward. Sam


Hi, Sam ! Whereabouts in Spain are you ?

Posted by: Guest 13th Sep 2014, 06:17pm

QUOTE
Nothing to do with Labour going against the working class of Scotland by not enacting the Scotland act that the majority of electorate voted for then..No rewriting of the history books there, the facts are the SNP did what they did because of Labours betrayal to the people of Scotland... simple fact and not my opinion.

The Scottish MPs representing the SNP at Westminster in 1979 were not compelled to vote with the Tories. Was it done in a fit of pique?

Posted by: hillfoot 13th Sep 2014, 06:26pm

For over three hundred years we have been part of something which has suppressed and repressed our talents and cultural qualities..it is now time to let our light shine.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesss!

Posted by: bilbo.s 13th Sep 2014, 06:37pm

Hmm ?

Posted by: petunia 13th Sep 2014, 06:43pm

QUOTE (Guest @ 13th Sep 2014, 04:21pm) *
Being of Scottish origin, I will be extremely saddened if Salmond gets his wishes and Scotland vote for independencesting plans for the UK, and would require some kind of border control between Scotland and England, or they will simply all come in via the open back door! ...

There is that GUEST again, if you are going to give your opinion and advice to the people of Scotland the very least you could do it let them know who you are GUEST

Posted by: bilbo.s 13th Sep 2014, 06:52pm

Jeez, Petunia, I nearly had a fit there. I didn't realise that the bulk of your post was a quote ! ohmy.gif

Posted by: hillfoot 13th Sep 2014, 06:57pm

No amount of rhetoric and passion will take us into the future to give us a glimpse of what life will really be like in an Independent Scotland. Having stated the bleeding obvious, this is a brilliant opportunity to shape our future and establish values that reflect our culture and aspirations based on our self belief.

A 'Yes' will start us on this fantastic journey and free us from the dead-weight that lies south of the border that we have been dragging behind us for the last 300 years!
:

Posted by: farrochie 13th Sep 2014, 09:26pm

QUOTE (carmella @ 13th Sep 2014, 03:46pm) *
I have agreed with Red too, but over on the Scottish Independence thread.

As long as we are in the EU there is no independence, for me independence means being totally independent of another country's rules and regulations imposed upon us.

There's a very significant difference in relationship Scotland/UK and UK/EU.

UK Treasury takes ALL Scotland's revenues: corporation tax, VAT, income tax, NICS, fuel, alcohol, tobacco & vehicle duties. In return, Scotland gets a "grant" [Barnett Formula] to run education, NHS, justice, etc.

In the EU, member countries pay a subsciption.

Posted by: *Paulie* 13th Sep 2014, 09:40pm

I hope the "NO" vote wins. It's not about financial gain, it's about breaking up
a small country that has fought two world wars together, suffered through the Blitz
and made a mark on the world. My heart is in Scotland, it's also in the British Isles,
GREAT BRITAIN Forever.

Posted by: MD 13th Sep 2014, 10:20pm

I am German born and have been married to a Scot for 14 years, am a British Citizen since 2002 and lived in Scotland for the past 8 years. I will vote YES as I think it is an opportunity for our country to become something great. All this scaremongering of the NO campaign is tiresome and I am just fed up with it. Apparently independence is a huge jump into the unknown and uncertain but then so would be a NO vote...Who knows what Westminster has in store for us if we vote NO. Plus, we would be the laughing stock of the world if we pass up this opportunity.

To get to the questions asked:

1. What is the single most important issue?
::: To be ruled by a government that the majority elected IN Scotland.

2. Have you been swayed by one side?
::: Every statement of the NO campaign just reinforces my YES decision

3. Have you been impressed by any politicians?
::: I have been impressed by Alex Salmond

4. Has the media reporting of the referendum been fair?
::: The BBC seems to be very bias in this but in general I think it has been quite fair.

5. Will the result have a long term effect on how we live?
::: I would hope so, for the better.

6. Do you just want it all to be over?
::: Cannot wait to cast my vote. YES all the way!

Posted by: taurus 13th Sep 2014, 10:45pm

I wouldn`t dream of trying to nominate a yes or no since I left a long time ago,but I do agree wholeheartedly with what Brian Cox said in his interview. London is a whole other country on it`s own,the big joke is England finishes at Watford,it`s not a joke,it`s a reality. I have spent half a lifetime travelling to the South to visit my daughter and family,and then on to Glasgow to visit my remaining relatives there. I ALWAYS return to England depressed,when I compare the standard of living between the 2.It`s not fair,never has been,and I can well imagine how the yes vote is needed from an emotional point of view if nothing else.All the economics and logistics aside,Scotland deserves better,and if the yes vote wins it,well I hope with all my heart that Scotland will get to enjoy at least a little of the lavish luxury enjoyed by the minority in that 'other country' London.

And by the way,my new British passport is arriving by courier tomorrow I am informed,ironical ,if by Thursday it will be obsolescent.

Posted by: carmella 13th Sep 2014, 10:54pm

My passport expred in August 2013, I didn't renew because I don't intend going outside the UK again, in fact probably not even outside Scotland.

It's handy for other reasons to have a passport to I'll have it renewed, but it won't be in time for the 18th, so I suppose I'll just bide my time.

London is a bubble it's almost as if the city had a glass wall right around it because I swear most of the inhabitants don't live in the real world, they think only in terms of London and the south-east - that's a fact.

Posted by: gormac 13th Sep 2014, 10:57pm

I'm a Scot living in Australia. I'd take a chance and vote YES if I were given the vote.
But I haven't lived in Scotland for 50 years so wouldn't realistically expect to be counted.
It does seem strange though that Poles and Germans who may just have settled there recently get to vote.
I must say that I don't believe the YES campaign is likely to win given the recent news that the banks are threatening to pull out of Scotland. Do I sense the hand of Tory England behind that tactic?
Anyway guid luck to you all. Here's hoping......

Posted by: carmella 13th Sep 2014, 11:05pm

It's interesting to see today how many new members have come to this site to tell us what they think about the Referendum, and also some members who have not posted on the GG for a while.

It's nice to see and thank you all for your input. As for the different nationalites who have taken up residence in Scotland in recent times, you are quite right they are able to vote because they live here, have addresses here, and have registered to vote.

I can see how you would think it hard to understand, but at the end of the day it's purely because they live and work here, well some may not be working.

Posted by: bds1958 13th Sep 2014, 11:53pm

Right, here goes.........I moved south in "75" aged 17 and to be fair have prospered pretty well. I'm currently unemployed as the "green shoots of economic recovery" don't appear to be tickling my feet. During the last 39 years I have been proud of my country of birth and have extolled its virtues wherever I go. I've researched the history of Scotland, including the ill-fated Darien scheme which resulted in the Act of Union and the "Highland Clearances" to name but two famous "shaftings" by Westminster.
It saddens me that Scotland is still being "shafted" by "Planet London" and the "toffs" in the South.
I don't have a vote but if I did it would be YES. I've done the research on-line and have discovered many things that the Westminster controlled media will not let see the light of day.
People ask me how we can change things for the better in Scotland. You already have it better than the rest of the UK due to how the Scottish government chooses to spend your "pocket money". You have had a council tax freeze for the past 5 years and this continues, free care for the elderly, free university education, free bus passes for the elderly, free prescriptions and eye tests, no bridge tolls.
England has none of these benefits due to decisions taken by Westminster.
Scotland generated 53.1 billion in taxes last year. The Scottish government received 30 billion in a block grant, the UK “spent” the rest on your behalf + an additional 12.1 billion pounds on debt and “unspecified” costs. That means that Westminster spent 35.2 BILLION on your behalf; more than what the Scottish government received.
Any businessman will tell you that labour is their greatest outlay. Tax collecting and allocation is a business, income tax, oil revenues, VAT, air passenger duty, betting and gaming, cigarettes & alcohol, Fuel, TV licensing, road tax.
Scotland controls NONE of these revenues raised. The UK takes this money and allocates it how IT sees fit. Welfare & social security payments, licensing, national infrastructure projects, the military are all businesses. Ask yourself how many thousands of jobs are created OUTSIDE of Scotland to collect and spend 34 BILLION POUNDS. No one knows exactly but ALL will return to Scotland, boost your tax take, create employment and grow your economy at NO cost to Scotland.
The military contribution that Scotland forwards to the UK is 3.1 Billion per year. You receive 2 billion spent in Scotland, an immediate saving of 1 billion whilst maintaining at least the same military presence. Scotland’s military will be based in Scotland, not overseas. An additional 10-12000 direct jobs for personnel and their families. The supply chain and logistics required to support your personnel will create countless thousands more jobs again increasing your tax take at no additional cost to Scotland.
Remove your contribution to the House of Lords, (an unelected body), another immediate saving of 50 million per year. Remove your contribution to the HS2, (4.7 BILLION), a new London sewerage system, London cross rail, another London airport, Westminster upgrade at 500 million, subway upgrades and the Billions required for other London upgrades and you save countless billions that can be spent in Scotland again increasing employment, infrastructure and tax take at no cost to you.
By removing Trident you will save 4 BILLION per year, (the complete annual Scottish Education bill for the next 30 years). It can be spent on YOUR services, bairns before bombs! Trident is an American controlled system that YOU pay for. Even the US wants it scrapped and replaced with conventional forces. It is a vanity system for Westminster and provides NO credible deterrent. The US has Thousands of nuclear weapons and should ANYONE fire these then no one will need to worry about a referendum because there will be no one left.
There are around 200 countries in the world. Almost every single one will need an embassy or a consulate in Edinburgh. This will generate countless millions more, raising the countries profile and increasing travel to your main airports and generating additional jobs and revenue at no cost to Scotland.
Let us get to the additional monies that will come your way from Scotland’s hidden wealth. All of the main supermarkets, banks, English oil refineries, Oil companies head offices and countless other large businesses are registered in London. All whiskey exported from English ports is counted as UK revenue not Scotland’s. After independence these companies will have to register here and pay tax to the Scottish government. ALL of the oil companies head offices will transfer to the country who OWNS the oil. Thousands more highly paid jobs moving north generating increased tax take and employment opportunities at no cost to Scotland.
Tony Blair annexed 6000 square miles of Scottish waters illegally in 1999. This allowed oilfields and fishing revenue that Scotland created to be counted towards UK GDP and not Scotland, estimated at 2 billion per year. After independence these maritime borders will be restored under international law and the revenue transferred under the Scottish government, a massive benefit to YOUR economy at no cost to you.
There is a new oil boom and it will provide massive revenues for Scotland for the next 50 years. It is just beginning and the technology is now available to bring this oil onshore. This is why there is massive investment in the Shetlands not seen since the 70’s. This is also conveniently not reported in the mainstream media, (check Yes Shetland on FB). The UK has continually tried to downplay this benefit but it is what has propped up the pound for the past 40 years. Alistair Darling quoted exactly this. It is not just what comes out; it is what is still under Scottish waters, currently estimated at between 1-3 TRILLION pounds. Money will flood into Scotland when they have this security policy and without a currency union the RUK debt will increase overnight and they will be asked to pay a higher % against their debts. Ask yourself this, who would you lend money to, a country of 5 million who had just received this security against their debts or a country of 60 million with 1.4 trillion of debt who had just lost it? This is THE elephant in the room for Westminster. Without the security of what is UNDER Scotland’s waters then THEY are in a desperate position without currency union
Once Scotland negotiates its debt against its assets, (assets assumed to be in the region of 100 billion) you will have very little debt. Return all of your revenues and bring thousands of jobs home and remove your payments to build London and the SE and you may not even have a deficit. Whatever that is it will put you in the enviable position that you already are without any of these benefits, the 14th richest country in the world. Look around you and ask why your villages, towns and cities do not reflect this then look at London. You will then clearly see just WHO is "Better Together".
Ultimately, the Scottish people have to believe in themselves, the people and our nation, to do it better than Westminster......or else it will be "same shit, different year"................

Posted by: deebel 14th Sep 2014, 12:26am

I am proudly voting NO in the referendum. I have been swayed by neither campaign and have read little of the mountain of paper landing in my hall. For me it is not about politics. Politicians on every side let you down. Idealistic ambition is tempered by compromise, doing deals, changing the goalposts, spin, broken promises.

I was born in Scotland and have been Scottish and a British Citizen all my life. That defines who I am and that is what I want to remain. My roots are from Dumfriesshire, The Borders, Cumbria, Northumberland, Northern Ireland. My family are Scottish, English, Irish (and Welsh of Scottish parents). I feel affinity with people from the Southern Uplands of Scotland , the North of England and Northern Ireland. I am at home in Lanarkshire, Dumfriesshire, Cumbria, Antrim, Durham, Yorkshire. I do not feel that the Highlands are my home. I do not speak Gaelic. Gaelic speakers are foreign to me. Finding a proliferation of bilingual signage springing up in non Gaelic areas is annoying. I would rather have a reduction in my Council Tax. It is now a sacrifice at the altar of political correctness.

To risk all that I have now for the ability to make our own mistakes is not a credible reason for change. If you are a multi-millionaire or a lottery winner you can afford to play “countries” because when it goes belly up you still have £100million in the bank (no doubt in an offshore account).

If it is a No vote there will be millions of relieved No voters and the equivalent amount of dissappointed Yes voters but they will be able to say that at least they gave it their best shot.

If it is a Yes vote then there will be jubilant triumphalist nationals, but there will also be millions of angry Scottish British citizens who have been disenfranchised at a stroke. Hardly an outcome conducive to building a new idealogical utopia.

As I said it is not about politics for me. The United Kingdom is my country.

Posted by: bds1958 14th Sep 2014, 12:56am

QUOTE (deebel @ 14th Sep 2014, 12:43am) *
As I said it is not about politics for me. The United Kingdom is my country.

I do wish people wouldn't refer to the "United Kingdom" as a "Country".......Scotland is a country, Wales is a country, Northern Ireland is a country...............and England is a country. The United Kingdom is a State.....................London and the South East would regard the first 3 as "Regions". Whatever the outcome on the 18th is, all I can say is "You Reap What You Sow"...........

Posted by: andypisces 14th Sep 2014, 02:55am

QUOTE (bds1958 @ 14th Sep 2014, 01:13am) *
I do wish people wouldn't refer to the "United Kingdom" as a "Country".......Scotland is a country, Wales is a country, Northern Ireland is a country...............and England is a country. The United Kingdom is a State.....................London and the South East would regard the first 3 as "Regions". Whatever the outcome on the 18th is, all I can say is "You Reap What You Sow"...........

I would like to point out as you have said, the united kingdom is not a country. Reading your long posting you mentioned money received from whiskey would go to scotland. Well whiskey is not scottish, whisky however is.

Posted by: Strangelove 14th Sep 2014, 03:16am

Not directly Scottish and, admittedly, I haven't been following the issue much. That said, I would repeat a quote I read (I think) in The Scotsman:

My heart says yes, but my head says no.

Just doesn't seem practical and would be a logistical nightmare.

Posted by: Millymouse 14th Sep 2014, 07:16am

He even took elocution lessons to try and get rid of his accent grrrrr

Posted by: bilbo.s 14th Sep 2014, 07:27am

QUOTE (bds1958 @ 14th Sep 2014, 02:10am) *
Right, here goes.........I moved south in "75" aged 17 and to be fair have prospered pretty well. I'm currently unemployed as the "green shoots of economic recovery" don't appear to be tickling my feet. During the last 39 years I have been proud of my country of birth and have extolled its virtues wherever I go. I've researched the history of Scotland, including the ill-fated Darien scheme which resulted in the Act of Union and the "Highland Clearances" to name but two famous "shaftings" by Westminster.
It saddens me that Scotland is still being "shafted" by "Planet London" and the "toffs" in the South.
I don't have a vote but if I did it would be YES. I've done the research on-line and have discovered many things that the Westminster controlled media will not let see the light of day.
People ask me how we can change things for the better in Scotland. You already have it better than the rest of the UK due to how the Scottish government chooses to spend your "pocket money". You have had a council tax freeze for the past 5 years and this continues, free care for the elderly, free university education, free bus passes for the elderly, free prescriptions and eye tests, no bridge tolls.
England has none of these benefits due to decisions taken by Westminster.
Scotland generated 53.1 billion in taxes last year. The Scottish government received 30 billion in a block grant, the UK “spent” the rest on your behalf + an additional 12.1 billion pounds on debt and “unspecified” costs. That means that Westminster spent 35.2 BILLION on your behalf; more than what the Scottish government received.
Any businessman will tell you that labour is their greatest outlay. Tax collecting and allocation is a business, income tax, oil revenues, VAT, air passenger duty, betting and gaming, cigarettes & alcohol, Fuel, TV licensing, road tax.
Scotland controls NONE of these revenues raised. The UK takes this money and allocates it how IT sees fit. Welfare & social security payments, licensing, national infrastructure projects, the military are all businesses. Ask yourself how many thousands of jobs are created OUTSIDE of Scotland to collect and spend 34 BILLION POUNDS. No one knows exactly but ALL will return to Scotland, boost your tax take, create employment and grow your economy at NO cost to Scotland.
The military contribution that Scotland forwards to the UK is 3.1 Billion per year. You receive 2 billion spent in Scotland, an immediate saving of 1 billion whilst maintaining at least the same military presence. Scotland’s military will be based in Scotland, not overseas. An additional 10-12000 direct jobs for personnel and their families. The supply chain and logistics required to support your personnel will create countless thousands more jobs again increasing your tax take at no additional cost to Scotland.
Remove your contribution to the House of Lords, (an unelected body), another immediate saving of 50 million per year. Remove your contribution to the HS2, (4.7 BILLION), a new London sewerage system, London cross rail, another London airport, Westminster upgrade at 500 million, subway upgrades and the Billions required for other London upgrades and you save countless billions that can be spent in Scotland again increasing employment, infrastructure and tax take at no cost to you.
By removing Trident you will save 4 BILLION per year, (the complete annual Scottish Education bill for the next 30 years). It can be spent on YOUR services, bairns before bombs! Trident is an American controlled system that YOU pay for. Even the US wants it scrapped and replaced with conventional forces. It is a vanity system for Westminster and provides NO credible deterrent. The US has Thousands of nuclear weapons and should ANYONE fire these then no one will need to worry about a referendum because there will be no one left.
There are around 200 countries in the world. Almost every single one will need an embassy or a consulate in Edinburgh. This will generate countless millions more, raising the countries profile and increasing travel to your main airports and generating additional jobs and revenue at no cost to Scotland.
Let us get to the additional monies that will come your way from Scotland’s hidden wealth. All of the main supermarkets, banks, English oil refineries, Oil companies head offices and countless other large businesses are registered in London. All whiskey exported from English ports is counted as UK revenue not Scotland’s. After independence these companies will have to register here and pay tax to the Scottish government. ALL of the oil companies head offices will transfer to the country who OWNS the oil. Thousands more highly paid jobs moving north generating increased tax take and employment opportunities at no cost to Scotland.
Tony Blair annexed 6000 square miles of Scottish waters illegally in 1999. This allowed oilfields and fishing revenue that Scotland created to be counted towards UK GDP and not Scotland, estimated at 2 billion per year. After independence these maritime borders will be restored under international law and the revenue transferred under the Scottish government, a massive benefit to YOUR economy at no cost to you.
There is a new oil boom and it will provide massive revenues for Scotland for the next 50 years. It is just beginning and the technology is now available to bring this oil onshore. This is why there is massive investment in the Shetlands not seen since the 70’s. This is also conveniently not reported in the mainstream media, (check Yes Shetland on FB). The UK has continually tried to downplay this benefit but it is what has propped up the pound for the past 40 years. Alistair Darling quoted exactly this. It is not just what comes out; it is what is still under Scottish waters, currently estimated at between 1-3 TRILLION pounds. Money will flood into Scotland when they have this security policy and without a currency union the RUK debt will increase overnight and they will be asked to pay a higher % against their debts. Ask yourself this, who would you lend money to, a country of 5 million who had just received this security against their debts or a country of 60 million with 1.4 trillion of debt who had just lost it? This is THE elephant in the room for Westminster. Without the security of what is UNDER Scotland’s waters then THEY are in a desperate position without currency union
Once Scotland negotiates its debt against its assets, (assets assumed to be in the region of 100 billion) you will have very little debt. Return all of your revenues and bring thousands of jobs home and remove your payments to build London and the SE and you may not even have a deficit. Whatever that is it will put you in the enviable position that you already are without any of these benefits, the 14th richest country in the world. Look around you and ask why your villages, towns and cities do not reflect this then look at London. You will then clearly see just WHO is "Better Together".
Ultimately, the Scottish people have to believe in themselves, the people and our nation, to do it better than Westminster......or else it will be "same shit, different year"................

Excellent post. I think you just about covered everything. I won't even mention your spelling of whisky ! smile.gif Sorry !

Posted by: gardenqueen 14th Sep 2014, 07:58am

QUOTE (taurus @ 14th Sep 2014, 12:02am) *
I wouldn`t dream of trying to nominate a yes or no since I left a long time ago,but I do agree wholeheartedly with what Brian Cox said in his interview. London is a whole other country on it`s own,the big joke is England finishes at Watford,it`s not a joke,it`s a reality. I have spent half a lifetime travelling to the South to visit my daughter and family,and then on to Glasgow to visit my remaining relatives there. I ALWAYS return to England depressed,when I compare the standard of living between the 2.It`s not fair,never has been,and I can well imagine how the yes vote is needed from an emotional point of view if nothing else.All the economics and logistics aside,Scotland deserves better,and if the yes vote wins it,well I hope with all my heart that Scotland will get to enjoy at least a little of the lavish luxury enjoyed by the minority in that 'other country' London.
And by the way,my new British passport is arriving by courier tomorrow I am informed,ironical ,if by Thursday it will be obsolescent.

Just to clarify, I take it you mean by "the minority in that 'other country' London", the mega rich and the people from overseas investing in property in London, rather than the minority being the general people of London in comparison to the rest of the UK.

There is a lot of poverty in London and the South East. Housing that should have been demolished years ago commands very high rents and people have no choice but to pay it. There is still a lot of homelessness in the London area. I live in Hertfordshire which is now seeing a huge influx from people who are being forced out of London as they don't earn enough to live there. Cuts in help with housing and a lack of places on offer when they have to move out means having to leave the area where they were born and brought up.

There is standing room only on the commuter trains taking the average, hard working person into London to pay their sky high mortgages but the price is greater than that, they spend so long travelling that their family life suffers. Wages may be higher in London but it doesn't make up for the cost of living. E.g. as a teacher, my London Allowance was less than £2,000 pa. Not nearly enough to offset extra rent/mortgage paid.

Some just give up and move away from their family and friends to try to survive. I have seen this quite often.

We live comfortably enough here but I wouldn't say that our standard of living is any higher than that of family and friends in Scotland. If anything, we possibly have less disposable income.

We certainly don't live a lavish lifestyle nor does anyone I know here.

Posted by: GG 14th Sep 2014, 09:02am

Willie sent his thoughts in by video link!


GG.

Posted by: john.mcn 14th Sep 2014, 09:23am

The comments section have swollen quite a bit since i first watched it ohmy.gif

Posted by: MorganLeeBand 14th Sep 2014, 09:29am


David Hayman- The Pitiless Storm Last Speech

A compelling clip from the Pitiless Storm starring David Hayman

Posted by: JimC 14th Sep 2014, 09:35am

I am home in Glasgow at the moment on vacation but unfortunately unable to vote as I am not a resident. I have been watching the Yes No ratings and it would appear that every time the YES vote goes ahead Westminster waves another carrot to the people of Scotland to vote No.
The most recent bribe is if Scotland votes No, Westminster will grant more power to the Scottish Parliament, well thank you Westminster but why should Scotland be granted more power by Westminster if Independence will grant us all the power we need to rule our own country. This is the type of bribe that lost Scotland it's independence in the first place.
With the resources that that Scotland has I am confident that prosperity is only a matter of time, yes there will be a few bumps on the road but that is to be expected with any major changes.
I would say YES, give it a chance, give yourselves a chance.
All The Very Best.

Posted by: Jupiter 14th Sep 2014, 09:41am

Will there be an Independence Day party this year ? rolleyes.gif

Posted by: GG 14th Sep 2014, 09:50am

QUOTE (MorganLeeBand @ 14th Sep 2014, 10:46am) *
David Hayman- The Pitiless Storm Last Speech

A compelling clip from the Pitiless Storm starring David Hayman

Wow! Amazing, moving, absolutely compelling.

http://www.fairpley.com/

EXTRA DATE - 15 September Oran Mor, GLASGOW
EXTRA DATE - 17 September, Blue Lamp, ABERDEEN

GG.

Posted by: Maryhill1953 14th Sep 2014, 09:53am

In response to your questions here are my thoughts and concerns

1.What is the single most important issue?

For me - it is my pension which is based on my late husband's contributions and I have not been able to find out if it would still be paid at the same rate in an independent Scotland.
I have contacted my MSP who sent me the white paper which does not answer this question and so far I have had no response from Nicola Sturgeon on the matter.

2.Have you been swayed by one side?

No - the expression "could nae run an ménage" applies at times

3.Have you been impressed by any politicians?

Sadly I have been disappointed by most however Douglas Alexander has stood out as knowledgeable, calm and concise and I believe George Galloway was a big hit on t.v.

4.Has the media reporting of the referendum been fair?

I don't know - I just know it has been relentless

5.Will the result have a long term effect on how we live?

It must do, with the ill will that has been engendered in some cases.

Posted by: Alex Saville 14th Sep 2014, 10:10am

Morgan

Thank you for posting the David Hayman video.
I found it very compelling, passionate, emotional and..... wow!.....what words can describe that performance that comes straight from the heart of that man and reaches out to the hearts of other's?

Thank you again.
Alex

Posted by: deebel 14th Sep 2014, 10:15am

QUOTE (bds1958 @ 14th Sep 2014, 02:13am) *
I do wish people wouldn't refer to the "United Kingdom" as a "Country".......Scotland is a country, Wales is a country, Northern Ireland is a country...............and England is a country. The United Kingdom is a State...............


I'm not trying to score points . When I say United Kingdom is my country I am simply telling you how I feel. There is nothing wrong in what I say. State and Country is interchangeable in my context. Country can refer to a region. Some people argue that Scotland is a former country as is England. Wales was never a country but a principality. I was taught at school that The Act of Union created a new single country of Great Britain . Isnt it the case that up until the early 20th century the "region" of Great Britain which was formerly Scotland was referred to as North Britain and England as South Britain. Even the Glasgow postal address was Glasgow N.B.

North British Hotel Edinburgh, North British Locomotive Works (greatest in the Empire) Springburn, North British Rubber Co (Edinburgh) inventors of Dunlop Tyres.etc. etc.

I am a proud Scot by heart and birth and my country is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. There is nothing incompatible with that.

Posted by: Guest 14th Sep 2014, 10:28am

YES. YES. YES. YES. YES. Lets rise & be a nation again!

Scotland can & will look after ourselves with our own assets.

Oil isn't as big an asset as some think, its only a small percentage of what Scotland has to offer. We're ready for independence now & have wanted it for a long time. Bring it on.

FREEDOM!!!

Posted by: bilbo.s 14th Sep 2014, 10:51am

The "North British" names you refer to were simply devised in an attempt to destroy Scottish identity. Fortunately the attempt failed big-time. I have never met an English person who claims to be British, much less South British. The Bank of South Britain would be preferable to the Bank of England I suppose, but it really should be the Bank of Great Britain.

Posted by: bilbo.s 14th Sep 2014, 11:07am

Maryhill 1953, You do not say whether you are already in receipt of UK State Pension, but the question has been answered many times, not least by the UK DWP.

Who told you that George Galloway had made a big impression on TV ? Big perhaps, but was it a favourable one ? Maybe they were referring to his famous cat impression of a few years ago. That certainly caused a stir ! rolleyes.gif

Posted by: carmella 14th Sep 2014, 11:21am

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 14th Sep 2014, 12:24pm) *
Maryhill 1953, You do not say whether you are already in receipt of UK State Pension, but the question has been answered many times, not least by the UK DWP.

Who told you that George Galloway had made a big impression on TV ? Big perhaps, but was it a favourable one ? Maybe they were referring to his famous cat impression of a few years ago. That certainly caused a stir ! rolleyes.gif

And it was soooooo cringeworthy, gosh will any of us ever forget the two of them.

Posted by: carmella 14th Sep 2014, 11:24am

The Pitiless was such a strong performance, and you could tell he was not just acting, but this came straight from his heart. An excellent watch inideed.

David Hayman did all of his performing studies in Glasgow, and his beloved Citizens Theatre where he had his first performance, many years ago, and has had some terrific roles over the years since - he's terrific and for me, falls into the same category as one or two other Scottish Actors, I so enjoy watching and listening too, the added bonus is that he is eligible to vote as he and his family live in Scotland, although I had a feeling that at some time they lived in France but I could be thinking of someone else, never fear it will come to me or I'll google.

A committed YES voter and active humanitarian, but I always think he's got a face only a mammy could love laugh.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 14th Sep 2014, 11:36am

Aye, he maks a richt fine villain !

Posted by: macjackb 14th Sep 2014, 11:49am

The quote at the beginning of the vid said a lot about how I feel, and it's interesting how, if polls are to be believed, the Yes campaign seemed to have got to neck-and-neck last weekend and has since waned slightly. As though we suddenly realised we'd got to the edge, and got scared by what we saw instead of feeling confident in the leap.

A lot has been made of the economic arguments, and for every one that says we'd be worse off there's another along in a minute that argues the opposite. I don't pretend to understand the minutiae of these. The truth is, for me, I actually don't care whether we'd be a £ or two worse off, whether my Income Tax would be a penny or two higher or lower. I see the territorial arrangement we call Great Britain now being dysfunctional, corrupt and morally bankrupt. No post war achievement, from the NHS to anything resembling a welfare safety net, isn't up for grabs or for scapegoating. The powerful are worshipped and the powerless blamed simply for being perceived as such. I feel sad and angry at bearing witness to this and at being a part of it. It's nothing to do with being a Scot. It's about the possibility of a smaller, independent state, differently organised, that preserves the best of British healthcare, education and welfare. I'm under no illusions that we'd be any kind of utopia, nor would I want it to be so. But we'd be able to have that bit more control; we'd be able to recall our rogues before they escaped and could stroll effortlessly, a la Blair, across the planet, scratching the backs of other hypocrites and monsters. That alone energises me, and in the long term I'd hope we'd come to smile at our own power rather than have to fear it and to tag along with that of a big brother.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 14th Sep 2014, 12:10pm

QUOTE (pumps100 @ 13th Sep 2014, 04:33pm) *
I am a Yes. Brought up with Labour instilled anti-nationalist position. Irvine Welch explains much better than I am capable of writing.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/09/08/labour-pains-labour-of-love/

Regards

Ian

Yes, Ian, a well writen piece.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 14th Sep 2014, 01:02pm

QUOTE (deebel @ 14th Sep 2014, 12:43am) *
I am proudly voting NO in the Referendum ... To risk all that I have now for the ability to make our own mistakes is not a credible reason for change.

There's no answer to that rolleyes.gif
But future generations of Scots might wish you had thought more of them than what you fear you might yet risk losing.

Posted by: Betsy2009 14th Sep 2014, 01:07pm

I'm all right, Jack!

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 14th Sep 2014, 02:05pm

QUOTE (MD @ 13th Sep 2014, 10:37pm) *
I am German born ... and lived in Scotland for the past 8 years. I will vote YES.
Cannot wait to cast my vote. YES all the way!

Hi MD, Grueze tongue.gif
I'm glad to see you acting as my Proxy vote.
Vielen dank thumbup.gif

Posted by: dugald 14th Sep 2014, 02:32pm

I did enjoy the short video, but I really never have needed anything to remind me of Scotland's beauty... 'ts in ma genes.

I vote NO in this GG referendum. Regarding this GG vote, I have noticed rather a lot of 'YES' voters who have hardly been seen on GG : I feel there is skullduggery involved. But that's just because I'm a helluva bad loser.

"What is the single most important issue?" Separation from the UK is the most important issue.
"Have you been swayed by one side?" Absolutely not.
"Have you been impressed by any politicians?" Yes. Salmond made an impression on me...I cannot stand the sight of this man!
"Has the media reporting of the referendum been fair?" I have no idea.
"Will the result have a long term effect on how we live?". Very much so.
"Do you just want it all to be over?". Yes... and I want to tell all you "Yes" voters to get stuffed!!!!

Posted by: rds60h 14th Sep 2014, 02:45pm

No, No, No, in my mind it would be the worst thing that could ever happen to Scotland.
Does anyone really think that the EU will treat an Independent Scotland better than Westminster does ?
As part of the Union at least we have some clout against the often ridiculously stupid rulings issued by the EU, as an Independent Scotland I believe the EU will plunder Scotland's Fishing and Farming Rights, it will hi jack Oil and Gas Rights and Revenue as if they were the bully in the school playground.
Also too much has been taken for granted by the Yes campaign and no real thought or certainty has been given to the reality that Scotland will have to completely set up and fund a New Currency, a New Income Tax and Social Security System, A New Vehicle Tax and Registration System, a Separate Customs and Excise System, a New Armed Forces, Immigration Systems and the list goes on, because Westminster will no allow or be prepared to fund the use of the existing UK Systems, it will be a case of "it's my ball and I'm going home"
Even the fate of the Scots outside Scotland, but living in the UK has been completely ignored and assumed !
It has been said they will be considered Scottish Citizens, but then it has been assumed that they will be allowed Dual Nationality. If that Dual Nationality is not granted all Scots in the UK outside of Scotland will instantly become Illegal Immigrants, so considerations like that should have been better discussed. What if we are all forced to return to Scotland ? will there be housing and employment for us ?
UK Scots not living in Scotland have been given no say on Scotland's future, yet Foreign Nationals that are domicile in Scotland have been given the vote, so the Vote for or against Independence is not even wholly Scottish decision.

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 14th Sep 2014, 02:50pm

QUOTE (RedSkywalker @ 13th Sep 2014, 01:32pm) *
The problem I have with being asked "should Scotland be an independent country" is it`s irrelevant to reality.

Is the UK an independent country? NO it's not because an independent country controls its own borders which the UK is not allowed to by the EU. Does the UK control its own currency? NO because its tied to the EU and has to comply with EU budgetary requirements. Does it control the fishing rights within its waters - NO; the EU does! Does it have free access to world trade - NO it has to comply with EU tariff arrangements - the UK is deep in thrall to the EU and does not meet any definition of "independent" you want to apply.

But it seems BT`s entire strategy hinges on throwing those two very (loaded) questions at the Yes Campaign. Typical Establishment hipocrisy?

yes.gif yes.gif yes.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 14th Sep 2014, 03:16pm

QUOTE (rds60h @ 14th Sep 2014, 03:02pm) *
UK Scots not living in Scotland have been given no say on Scotland's future, yet Foreign Nationals that are domicile in Scotland have been given the vote, so the Vote for or against Independence is not even wholly Scottish decision.

You dont live here, they do, get over it!

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 14th Sep 2014, 03:20pm

QUOTE (carmella @ 13th Sep 2014, 07:26pm) *
I don't think anyone has yet answered my question about the currency issue - very very important.

I believe it has been . Time and time again. The pound is, in a manner of speaking "public domain". THEY can`t impose a blacklist on specific "outsiders" using it or markets will treat the pound as discredited. If iScotland now, who goes on the blacklist tomorrow? And tomorrow? And tomorrow? And BT`ve been blue(nosed) in the face telling us markets dread instability. Bit of BT hipocrisy there, I fancy.

By the way, I think, if they COULD stop people using the pound, don`t you think they would`ve done it to the iSouthern Irish Republic? Check the facts. UK Treasury HELPED them in their currency transition. But they mask that fact now. Phone up any oldie in ROI and ask. Go on. Try a living witness. Not a sleazy politico.

Currency Union? Definite. The jitters right now is cos the markets don`t know whether Osbourne`s bluffing. HE`S causing this deliberately. And trying to frame us. UK economy is in the toilet. Check the facts. The much-heralded be-all-and-end-all deficit -- which the Con-Dem got elected to vanquish, and Osbourne swore to obliterate by 2015 -- has doubled. Doubled. But they -- and their press pals keep schtoom. Til the 19th. After that, the gloves come off for UK election 2015. And the truth conveniently reappears. In Mirror Group newspapers.

The UK`s sleight-of-hand economic "recovery" DOES NOT fool the markets. They allow them this indulgence cos, as long as they got OUR oil on THEIR books, as a UK asset, they`ve good good long-term collateral form. On the 19th, after the Yes vote, that oil slides on OUR new books. And the UK`s economic con-trick will no longer be tolerated by the markets. But a CU, by association, technically still ties our oil to the UK. By association. So the Westminster headcases still keep some freedom to ruin everything. Pretending their slash-and-redistribute "policy" is working great guns.

Got it?

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 14th Sep 2014, 03:32pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 14th Sep 2014, 12:24pm) *
Maryhill 1953, You do not say whether you are already in receipt of UK State Pension, but the question has been answered many times, not least by the UK DWP.

Who told you that George Galloway had made a big impression on TV ? Big perhaps, but was it a favourable one ? Maybe they were referring to his famous cat impression of a few years ago. That certainly caused a stir ! rolleyes.gif

Well, meow!!!!!

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Go on, bilbo.s, post a YouTube link on the big chooky making a right pussy of himself...

Posted by: Betsy2009 14th Sep 2014, 03:40pm

George was too busy being bitter about his divorces to make any sense on any topic.

Posted by: farrochie 14th Sep 2014, 03:44pm

Going by the scenes around Aberdeen today, big crowd, YES-decorated cars, much excitement and happy YES faces, it looks to me that the No vote has tanked.

A few glum NOses heading away fae the city centre, glared at my YES tagged motorbike. No voters must surely be miffed by the biased actions of the BBC, wrt RBS, and the corporate nay sayers, the bankers, yes the ones like Deutsche Bank who received heavy fines for their malfeasance. These are the folk trying to get you to support the corrupt Westminster elite.

It might be close, but a landslide YES is there to be claimed.

Posted by: farrochie 14th Sep 2014, 03:50pm

QUOTE (Maryhill1953 @ 14th Sep 2014, 11:10am) *
1.What is the single most important issue?

For me - it is my pension which is based on my late husband's contributions and I have not been able to find out if it would still be paid at the same rate in an independent Scotland.
I have contacted my MSP who sent me the white paper which does not answer this question and so far I have had no response from Nicola Sturgeon on the matter.

Maryhill1953,

I appreciate your concern, as it has been shared with me by several pensioners on the doorstep. I am in receipt of State Pension.
The UK State Pension is governed by European Rules. The UK must pay your pension in whatever country you chose to live in.

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=857&langId=en&intPageId=975

What rules apply to survivors’ pensions?

In general, the rules which apply to pensions for surviving spouses or orphans are the same as the ones applying to invalidity and old-age pensions. Namely, survivors’ pensions have to be paid without any reduction, modification or suspension regardless of where the surviving spouse resides in the EU, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway or Switzerland.

Posted by: deebel 14th Sep 2014, 03:52pm

QUOTE (Ruchazie Rat @ 14th Sep 2014, 04:37pm) *
I believe it has been . Time and time again. The pound is, in a manner of speaking "public domain". THEY can`t impose a blacklist on specific "outsiders" using it or markets will treat the pound as discredited. If iScotland now, who goes on the blacklist tomorrow? And tomorrow? And tomorrow? And BT`ve been blue(nosed) in the face telling us markets dread instability. Bit of BT hipocrisy there, I fancy.

The Pound Sterling is the currency of the United Kingdom. There is no such thing as a Scottish Pound. Scottish Bank Notes (like Northern Ireland) are only circulated for warm fuzzy feeling reasons because Scottish Banks retained the right to issue notes. But the Scottish Banks have to have the equivalent Bank of England Notes secured in the vault for each Scottish Bank note they circulate.

If an independent Scotland wants to introduce a Scottish currency pound then they can. They can decide to move the market value of the SP on par with Sterling but that means the Scottish economy expands or retracts according to the wishes of the United Kingdom. How is that being independent?

If Scotland wants to issue its own currency it needs to establish its own central bank to support it but as far as its credit rating in world standing it will be just like a new customer with no credit history trying to get a loan. PayDay check rates equals more tax take on interest equals less public spending and higher personal tax while looking over the border at our proper kin paying less tax and having more to spend.

Posted by: john.mcn 14th Sep 2014, 04:13pm

QUOTE (deebel @ 14th Sep 2014, 04:09pm) *
If an independent Scotland wants to introduce a Scottish currency pound then they can. They can decide to move the market value of the SP on par with Sterling but that means the Scottish economy expands or retracts according to the wishes of the United Kingdom. How is that being independent?

Thew value of sterling is determined by international markets, the price whether low or high also effects the economy does it not?

Posted by: deebel 14th Sep 2014, 04:15pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 14th Sep 2014, 12:08pm) *
The "North British" names you refer to were simply devised in an attempt to destroy Scottish identity. Fortunately the attempt failed big-time. I have never met an English person who claims to be British, much less South British. The Bank of South Britain would be preferable to the Bank of England I suppose, but it really should be the Bank of Great Britain.

Think they were actually in the Act of Union..

As far as the Bank of England is named obviously the Scots guy who founded it didn't see it as an issue..

Posted by: bilbo.s 14th Sep 2014, 04:22pm

QUOTE (Ruchazie Rat @ 14th Sep 2014, 05:49pm) *
Well, meow!!!!!

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Go on, bilbo.s, post a YouTube link on the big chooky making a right pussy of himself...

I do not think such a thing should be inflicted on people for another time.

Posted by: gardenqueen 14th Sep 2014, 04:27pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 14th Sep 2014, 04:33pm) *
You dont live here, they do, get over it!

Actually, I think that ex pat Scots are in a good position to think in an objective way, not always the case with people who are being whipped up into a frenzy on a daily basis. Just because we don't live there, it doesn't mean that we can't appreciate the pros and cons. The decision will affect family and friends still living there for a very long time to come and, therefore, us in some ways.

Just saying.

Posted by: john.mcn 14th Sep 2014, 04:29pm

QUOTE (deebel @ 14th Sep 2014, 04:32pm) *
Think they were actually in the Act of Union..

As far as the Bank of England is named obviously the Scots guy who founded it didn't see it as an issue..

Why would he, it was formed before the Union of parliaments. When it was Nationalised it should have changed it's name just as other nationalised industries did.

Posted by: Wee George 14th Sep 2014, 04:30pm

With a Socialist Leftist leading the charge for YES I would be voting NO. Handing out even more "welfare" benefits to young gullible Scots will eventually lead to Scotland's further decline. Here in the US we also are cursed with more Obama "entitlements" leading to the slow death of this great country. Having been born and raised in Glasgow and having also lived in London, British Columbia and 20 years in Southern California - now big Socialist havens! - I have seen their steady demise. Arizona has not yet taken that crumbling road. Whatever the outcome, I am still a son of Scotland and I wish her only the best aye!

Posted by: john.mcn 14th Sep 2014, 04:33pm

QUOTE (gardenqueen @ 14th Sep 2014, 04:44pm) *
Actually, I think that ex pat Scots are in a good position to think in an objective way, not always the case with people who are being whipped up into a frenzy on a daily basis. Just because we don't live there, it doesn't mean that we can't appreciate the pros and cons. The decision will affect family and friends still living there for a very long time to come and, therefore, us in some ways.

Just saying.

If you have family and friends here they get the vote, i know other nationals who have made their home and will probably live out there life here, i find it ridiculous that some people who have moved away think they should get the vote over them.

Posted by: petunia 14th Sep 2014, 05:01pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 14th Sep 2014, 04:50pm) *
If you have family and friends here they get the vote, i know other nationals who have made their home and will probably live out there life here, i find it ridiculous that some people who have moved away think they should get the vote over them.

I think you are right as people who do not live there do not have to live with the consequences of a YES
or no vote I would hazard a guess that there are many many of us living abroad or down south who
have family living in Scotland that can think for themselves.

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 14th Sep 2014, 05:06pm

QUOTE (Ruchazie Rat @ 14th Sep 2014, 04:37pm) *
I believe it has been . Time and time again. The pound is, in a manner of speaking "public domain". THEY can`t impose a blacklist on specific "outsiders" using it or markets will treat the pound as discredited. If iScotland now, who goes on the blacklist tomorrow? And tomorrow? And tomorrow? And BT`ve been blue(nosed) in the face telling us markets dread instability. Bit of BT hipocrisy there, I fancy.

QUOTE (deebel @ 14th Sep 2014, 05:09pm) *
The Pound Sterling is the currency of the United Kingdom. There is no such thing as a Scottish Pound. Scottish Bank Notes (like Northern Ireland) are only circulated for warm fuzzy feeling reasons because Scottish Banks retained the right to issue notes. But the Scottish Banks have to have the equivalent Bank of England Notes secured in the vault for each Scottish Bank note they circulate.

If an independent Scotland wants to introduce a Scottish currency pound then they can. They can decide to move the market value of the SP on par with Sterling but that means the Scottish economy expands or retracts according to the wishes of the United Kingdom. How is that being independent?

If Scotland wants to issue its own currency it needs to establish its own central bank to support it but as far as its credit rating in world standing it will be just like a new customer with no credit history trying to get a loan. PayDay check rates equals more tax take on interest equals less public spending and higher personal tax while looking over the border at our proper kin paying less tax and having more to spend.

I was clearly referring to the english/UK pound. And my point still stands. When a country creates a currency it must be put into circulation around -- shared with --the rest of the world in order for that country`s internal/external economy to function. So, again, the UK cannot stop iScotland using the (British) pound. That is why they make childish threats to, instead, get around this fiscal Catch 22, by creating transaction fees between us and Britain.

Funny that, when the civilised countries in the EU tried to instigate a miniscule transaction tax for all European markets, which would`ve raised a small mega-fortune for all the EuroTreasuries it covered, Osbourne used the UK`s veto to shoot it down. He thought it more important not to risk upsetting his foreign cohorts -- like America -- who use the London Stock Exchange as a front/clearing house for their dirty little tricks now that Washington has to be seen to be doing "something" about the unbridled sleaze and corruption of Wall Street. Case in point, derivatives sold on the markets. Or, rather, resold on. That is, when loans/securities/high risk financial transactions are put together by these chancers, they`re only allowed to "sell them on" around 15-20 times. (In real world terms, if you or I tried to resell something like that on, that`s called fraud). But in gloriius London, unregulated latrine that it is, these US Clearing Houses, re-flog off debt packages, literally, limitlessly. It`s called, euphamistically, rehypothication.

So, what I said still holds true. We CAN use the UK pound. And THEY need a Currency Union with us, or our colosal oil assets, now on iScotland`s books not the UK`s any longer, means the markets draw in the purse strings viz-a-viz Blighty`s credit rating, (loans, etc). And we all know how much THEY regard their Holy Eucharist of The Treble AAA rating. Osbourne swore to inflict whatever austerity brutality required to appease these Credit Raters. But lost it any way a few YEARS ago.

Funny too, how all his press pals no longer mention that. Or the now doubled national deficit.

Well done, George. Couldn`t inflicted any more economic damage if you were a dyed-in-the-wool, chain fag-smoking, spliff-puffing, red armband-wearing, Che Guevara-beret leftie.

Makes you wonder what his idea of a **** up looks like...

Posted by: bilbo.s 14th Sep 2014, 05:09pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 14th Sep 2014, 06:46pm) *
Why would he, it was formed before the Union of parliaments. When it was Nationalised it should have changed it's name just as other nationalised industries did.

Beat me to it, John ! smile.gif

Posted by: carmella 14th Sep 2014, 05:54pm

Ruchazie Rat.

If the question had already been answered, I'd not have asked about it.

Are you and everyone else not forgetting something. At the moment Scotland is part of the United Kingdom, therefore, it uses UK currency.

Scotland when it is an independent country will have to apply (daft idea I think) to re-negotiate as a new country to join the EU, therefore, all new EU member countries will have to use the Euro - there is no choice in the matter.

I have not been given the definitive answer to this - by you or anyone else, despite it's been talked about over and over ad nauseum.

I need the surety of that answer,

I'm not thick and I'm not stupid when it comes to money.

deebel

QUOTE
If an independent Scotland wants to introduce a Scottish currency pound then they can. They can decide to move the market value of the SP on par with Sterling but that means the Scottish economy expands or retracts according to the wishes of the United Kingdom. How is that being independent?

If Scotland wants to issue its own currency it needs to establish its own central bank to support it but as far as its credit rating in world standing it will be just like a new customer with no credit history trying to get a loan. PayDay check rates equals more tax take on interest equals less public spending and higher personal tax while looking over the border at our proper kin paying less tax and having more to spend.


very clear answer - says pretty close to what I was thinking.

Posted by: gardenqueen 14th Sep 2014, 05:58pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 14th Sep 2014, 05:50pm) *
If you have family and friends here they get the vote, i know other nationals who have made their home and will probably live out there life here, i find it ridiculous that some people who have moved away think they should get the vote over them.

Not quite sure where you get the idea that I think I should have the vote, especially over some people living there! However, I can have opinions, I assume? Or is that ridiculous too? Perhaps people who no longer live in Scotland are considered not really Scottish any more and not worth listening to. Whatever happens will affect us all one way or another. It is on the television all the time including interviews with some people who don't seem to know what their own opinions are, even at this late stage! It's not the X-Factor, votes matter and will affect lives for a very long time. People should have given it enough thought by this time to know what they want. Normally people who "don't know" don't bother to vote but they will this time albeit without really knowing what they want. Worrying, or what?

It will be interesting, whatever happens. The issue is already so divisive in terms of both within Scotland and in the rest of the U.K.

Posted by: carmella 14th Sep 2014, 05:58pm

It's amazing what a Referendum will do to bring back old members of the GG and also invite new ones - hope they all stick around for fairness of arguments.


Posted by: ashfield 14th Sep 2014, 06:02pm

I certainly don't think the media coverage has been fair, far from it. You would have to be extremely naive to miss the blatant bias, particularly in our (largely not Scottish owned) national press.

Celebrities played a small part in moving me from being 99% sure to 100% sure of my decision in the early days of the campaign. The, frankly, stupid and ill informed clowns that populate TV chat shows made my blood boil with their pronouncements on Scotland and it's people. That was closely followed by those going on, and on, and on, and on about what currency we would use.

The behaviour of Labour politicians has been my biggest disappointment, I expected the Tory rubbish but hoped for more from those claiming to be socialists. I voted Labour all my adult life but never again, they have been dishonest and deliberately misleading to voters.

I will vote yes because my heart always said it was right, my head is now convinced my heart was right.

Posted by: gardenqueen 14th Sep 2014, 06:18pm

QUOTE (carmella @ 14th Sep 2014, 07:15pm) *
It's amazing what a Referendum will do to bring back old members of the GG and also invite new ones - hope they all stick around for fairness of arguments.

I expect there is more chance if they are made to feel welcome.

Posted by: john.mcn 14th Sep 2014, 06:49pm

QUOTE (gardenqueen @ 14th Sep 2014, 06:15pm) *
Not quite sure where you get the idea that I think I should have the vote, especially over some people living there! However, I can have opinions, I assume? Or is that ridiculous too? Perhaps people who no longer live in Scotland are considered not really Scottish any more and not worth listening to. Whatever happens will affect us all one way or another. It is on the television all the time including interviews with some people who don't seem to know what their own opinions are, even at this late stage! It's not the X-Factor, votes matter and will affect lives for a very long time. People should have given it enough thought by this time to know what they want. Normally people who "don't know" don't bother to vote but they will this time albeit without really knowing what they want. Worrying, or what?

It will be interesting, whatever happens. The issue is already so divisive in terms of both within Scotland and in the rest of the U.K.

Did I say you did? I only quoted your post because you replied to mine. I have no problem with peoples opinion, never have done, only when they 'present' opinions as facts or have rants about not getting the vote does it bother me. Voting in the referendum is not about how 'Scottish' you are, it's simply that you live and are registered here.

I know people who have only recently made up their minds, what tilted it to the YES was the negativity, doom and gloom from bankers and the adverts.

Posted by: GG 14th Sep 2014, 07:37pm

excl.gif Please remember the instruction in the first post of this topic:

QUOTE
This topic is not meant to replace the extensive http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=25096, but is, rather, intended to capture in a non-judgemental and non-argumentative way a snapshot of members' observations, reflections and thoughts as we approach the referendum.

GG.

Posted by: NORRIE LIVINGSTONE 14th Sep 2014, 07:37pm

I like many hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of Scots who have left the shores of Scotland to create perhaps a better life than they had in the old Country. They still feel for the land I'm sure and perhaps Scots living in Scotland could learn a thing or two, just perhaps you might be naval gazing and believe that you would be better off standing on your own too feet. However this world is different today. Each and every Country now depends heavily on each other for trade and security. The UK has found this out time and again, from WW1 - WW2. The Scots have been there and done their bit not just for Scotland, but for all the peoples of the British Isles.

How, after all this time and the many wonderful connections we have with the rest of the Isles could we possibly at this point in time think that you may be better off alone. Its up to you what you decide, but you may find that going it alone isn't all that its cracked up to be. My personal opinion from afar is that your heart says YES but your Mind says I'm not sure. If your not sure then VOTE NO. Thanks for reading this and all the best to all you Scots where ever you are.

P.S Make your own mind up and try not to listen to the Pollie's - they are all tard with the same brush.

Norrie Livingstone.

Posted by: deebel 14th Sep 2014, 09:29pm

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 14th Sep 2014, 05:46pm) *
Why would he, it was formed before the Union of parliaments. When it was Nationalised it should have changed it's name just as other nationalised industries did.

Good point re start date. Regarding nationalisation given the iconic name of the Bank of England and its being synonymous with safety and security of the highest order it would make sense in everyone's interest including Scotland not to meddle with the obvious global brand.

Posted by: angel 14th Sep 2014, 09:32pm

#1.. The value of whatever currency Scotland will use should it become independent , Sterling has already lost ground on the international market because of the uncertainty of the break up of the UK ,
eg. " will Scotland separate ' and become truly independent .

#2.. NO

#3 I had hope'd that Westminster would have done a better job
in campaigning for the UK.

#4 Not so sure about that .

#5 I think so , should Scotland separate it will not be a garden of
Eden for them anytime soon , those who will vote Yes might
well wish that they still had Westminster to blame all of their
woes on .

#6 I want it to end with Scotland being part of the UK and to
discuss and negotiate for more autonomy , which it most definately
should have .

Posted by: carmella 14th Sep 2014, 09:45pm

QUOTE
[rds60h @ 14th Sep 2014, 03:02pm)
UK Scots not living in Scotland have been given no say on Scotland's future, yet Foreign Nationals that are domicile in Scotland have been given the vote, so the Vote for or against Independence is not even wholly Scottish decision.

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 14th Sep 2014, 04:33pm) *
You dont live here, they do, get over it!

Precisely - well said John!

Posted by: angel 14th Sep 2014, 09:59pm

QUOTE
This topic is not meant to replace the extensive Scottish Independence discussion topic, but is, rather, intended to capture in a non-judgemental and non-argumentative way a snapshot of members' observations, reflections and thoughts as we approach the referendum.

This quote from GG when he opened topic.

He made it clear that residence would not be a factor in posting an opinion.

I also see that you did not mention to Gardenqueen that she was not a resident and also a few other's.

Posted by: GG 14th Sep 2014, 10:57pm

QUOTE
* Our poll is for everyone, so you can vote in the poll even though you are a Glaswegian who is currently living overseas.

Please remember that in this topic residency is not an issue. I am specifically looking for a snapshot of thoughts and opinions from our GG community, i.e. Glaswegians, whether they live in Glasgow or not.

GG.

Posted by: carmella 14th Sep 2014, 11:14pm

1. What is the single most important issue? ------Fiscal.
2. Have you been swayed by one side? ------ no
3. Have you been impressed by any politicians? ------ no
4. Has the media reporting of the referendum been fair? ------ undecided
5. Will the result have a long term effect on how we live? ----- most definitely
6. Do you just want it all to be over? ------ absolutely.

Apparently Queenie has commented that the Scottish people should think very carefully about the Referendum. Well Queenie, I already have applied a great deal of thought to my vote - which is postal.

I think the starting topic made that perfectly clear - at least it did to me. The issue of casting a vote in Scotland is another matter entirely, and I should have thought most people knew that.

Posted by: Denis Hawthorne 14th Sep 2014, 11:47pm

My concern is that whichever way the vote goes, it is hardly a great walkover for the decision made; 51/49 or whatever.

I have been away for 50 odd years so don't take me too seriously. Notwithstanding I would hope the vote goes strongly one way or the other, yet that appears to be unlikely to be so.

It's too late now, but a three-quarter majority would have been a better requirement.

Whatever happens shortly, I know it will be good for Scotland.

Denis Hawthorne

Posted by: carmella 15th Sep 2014, 12:57am

You're quite right and have a good point. I would have liked the vote to be a bigger swing to either the yes or no camps, better than say just a small handful, because that only means that really, the country isn't sure.

Posted by: gjjwatson 15th Sep 2014, 03:35am

This is the first time that the ordinary people of Scotland have been asked if they want to be governed by Westminster. Up until now the big decisions affecting our lives have been made by others. We have a successful Parliament at Holyrood which has governed the country well. We have shown that we can rule ourselves. Do not let the fear mongers undermine your confidence.

Now`s the day and now`s the hour. We have nothing to fear but fear itself.

Posted by: Jupiter 15th Sep 2014, 05:17am

"This land is your land." An anthem for America by the late great Woody Guthrie who knew a bit about the oppressed folk of the USA.
As the big day approaches and I go over the final verse of Woodys anthem I think,this is what its going to be about for me.

"Nobody living can ever stop me,as I go walking that freedom highway;
Nobody living can ever make me turn back
This land was made for you and me."

Posted by: Dave Grieve 15th Sep 2014, 06:16am

I don't think I could have applied for a postal vote for this one, its too big too huge too momentous an occasion to miss out on actually going to the polling station, standing in line to cast my vote, just to be there for me soaking up the atmosphere would be like going back to the 1994 elections in SA a chance to be involved in and a taking part in history.

Posted by: gardenqueen 15th Sep 2014, 06:56am

I always thought that postal votes were for people who really can't get out to vote but I keep reading about people who have used this method (some of whom are now regretting their actions, apparently). Unless I was very old, disabled or lived somewhere remote, I don't think I would ever think to do a postal vote.

I assumed, at first, that they must have been very definite in their choice to request a postal vote but maybe not, it seems.


Posted by: bilbo.s 15th Sep 2014, 07:16am

I have wondered about the number of people making a postal vote, as I always assumed it was an option for those who, for one reason or another, were unable to reach their polling station on the day.

Posted by: Guest 15th Sep 2014, 07:17am

1. The single most important issue is written on the ballot paper i.e. Should Scotland be an independent country?
2. There are compelling arguments on both sides and I have been swayed by both sides from time to time.
3. I believe we have seen signs of real statesmanship from Alex Salmond on occasions but Anas Sarwar has shown signs of great potential.
4. I believe that referendum coverage has been fair but it is disappointing that there have been cries of “foul” from certain quarters and in my opinion the demonstrations outside BBC Scotland yesterday were the unacceptable face of the Yes campaign; little more than a baying mob.
5. Of course the result, yea or nay, will have a long term effect on all of us in Scotland.
6. I look forward to the end of the campaign but it is my fervent hope that the interest in politics generated by the referendum will be sustained and that the Scottish electorate will remain engaged with the political process.

Posted by: ashfield 15th Sep 2014, 07:35am

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 15th Sep 2014, 08:33am) *
I have wondered about the number of people making a postal vote, as I always assumed it was an option for those who, for one reason or another, were unable to reach their polling station on the day.

It's pretty much a standard option here now with all elections. Anyone who is eligible to vote can do it and all that's required is registering for one beforehand.

Posted by: gardenqueen 15th Sep 2014, 07:44am

It's a standard option here too but mostly used by those who really need to do it that way as far as I know.

It's not for me while I still have my health. I would feel pretty lazy to be honest. But, I suppose, horses for courses, as ever.

Posted by: ktv 15th Sep 2014, 07:46am

I suspect the postal votes have already been counted and judging by the flurry of panic from the bt nods etc then it looks like it didn't go their way.

Posted by: CharingCross 15th Sep 2014, 07:51am

I have always held the view that a vote IS PRIVATE.

Posted by: bilbo.s 15th Sep 2014, 08:05am

QUOTE (CharingCross @ 15th Sep 2014, 10:08am) *
I have always held the view that a vote IS PRIVATE.

Surely it is private in the sense that nobody is forced to divulge the information, but if one chooses to declare one's position, where is the harm ? One can be entitled to privacy without exercising the right.

Posted by: carmella 15th Sep 2014, 08:12am

I have been a postal voter for the past 3 years.

Furthermore, I am not lazy or infirm. I also haven't changed my mind, and it's the first time I have heard anyone say those who have already cast their postal vote have since changed their minds?

I was brought up to believe my vote was private, but it is not a written law, therefore, if I choose to reveal how I vote in any election, I may do so.

Posted by: bilbo.s 15th Sep 2014, 08:34am

Perhaps I should have added in my previous post, that I was puzzled as to why people chose this form of voting, when able to visit the polling station on the day.

Posted by: gardenqueen 15th Sep 2014, 10:19am

http://news.sky.com/story/1334420/scotland-postal-voters-regretting-their-choice





Posted by: gardenqueen 15th Sep 2014, 10:22am

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 15th Sep 2014, 09:51am) *
Perhaps I should have added in my previous post, that I was puzzled as to why people chose this form of voting, when able to visit the polling station on the day.

That is what I wondered really. Not just with the Scottish vote either.

Posted by: carmella 15th Sep 2014, 11:03am

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 15th Sep 2014, 09:51am) *
Perhaps I should have added in my previous post, that I was puzzled as to why people chose this form of voting, when able to visit the polling station on the day.

I don't know if that's the case really. I think some people choose to have a postal vote for all the reasons already covered. i.e. unfit, or way deep in the nether regions, so travelling to and from a polling station might be awfully long and awkward, but I'm no expert on the subject, but I would have thought a van (like the banking vans) might visit far off places, who knows.

I can only tell you about my own circumstances, there were times in the past when quite frankly I didn't have the time, but due to very long working hours, shifts etc., I always managed to go to a polling station as they are open late and from very early in the morning and I have never missed a vote since being eligible to vote, I wouldn't and logically, I cannot understand why anyone of any age, has never voted in their lives until now - for me, it beggars belief.

However, 3 years ago I was very ill and absolutely unable to leave the house, let alone go to a polling station, so I asked for a postal vote - thinking it would be a one-off. I got a letter back from the council telling me that they had granted me the postal vote. It is not, as I've discovered, a one off, as I now get my ballot paper since 3 years ago, by post. It suits me down to the ground, as I feel I have the comfort and time to sit and make a good, sound decision as I see it.

I won't bother looking into it, but I don't know where the 'granting' of permission comes in, as I do know it's an option open to anyone.

Posted by: carmella 15th Sep 2014, 11:04am

QUOTE (gardenqueen @ 15th Sep 2014, 11:39am) *
That is what I wondered really. Not just with the Scottish vote either.

Gardenqueen, I don't know where you live, but if you live in Scotland, this option would be open to you if you wanted it.

It doesn't say on your profile info whether you live in Scotland or not.

Posted by: Betsy2009 15th Sep 2014, 11:10am

Better a postal vote than no vote at all.

Posted by: gardenqueen 15th Sep 2014, 11:27am

QUOTE (carmella @ 15th Sep 2014, 12:21pm) *
Gardenqueen, I don't know where you live, but if you live in Scotland, this option would be open to you if you wanted it.

It doesn't say on your profile info whether you live in Scotland or not.

Yes, I do believe it is an option to have the postal vote in England too but haven't yet found it to be something I need. Never say never, mind you.

Carmella, I haven't lived in Scotland since 1971 when I moved to London to find my fortune. Still looking, mind you, but it has served me well over the years and once I had my children, then grandchildren, there is no way I would consider living anywhere else now.

Instead I enjoy a lavish lifestyle in Hertfordshire, not!

However, I still have family and friends living in Glasgow and the surrounding areas so take a big interest in the goings on. As I have mentioned before, the decision will affect everyone, not just those living in Scotland. I just hope it all works out for the best, whatever happens. I just can't imagine the aftermath, one way or another, as there will be a lot of people not happy with either decision, I fear.

I also stand by my suggestion that ex pats can see things in a more objective way although I don't think we should get the vote.

Posted by: john.mcn 15th Sep 2014, 11:50am

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 15th Sep 2014, 07:33am) *
I have wondered about the number of people making a postal vote, as I always assumed it was an option for those who, for one reason or another, were unable to reach their polling station on the day.

How else do you think all those Labour activists living and working in London got the vote wink.gif

Posted by: Heat 15th Sep 2014, 11:59am

We all had a postal vote this time - we're off to a wedding in France early on Thursday so there's no way we could do both. Really wish we could do this all the time or even to be able to vote online would suit me fine.

Posted by: Guest 15th Sep 2014, 12:07pm

Wonderful. Great video!!! smile.gif

Posted by: ashfield 15th Sep 2014, 12:14pm

I agree with those who have said that one's vote is private..........so I'm not telling you all I'm voting YES, it's a secret wink.gif

Posted by: robertpaterson 15th Sep 2014, 12:16pm

An awesome video in post #1
After a few years of doing extensive research on my Scottish roots, including a visit this past spring, I would move to Scotland in a heartbeat if it were financially feasible for me.
The 50% of my blood that is Scottish has been stirred and, if I could, I would vote YES.
You are strong, amazing folks that have had an impact on the world like no others. I have no doubt that Scotland could flourish on it's own.
I'm so proud to have Scottish blood!

Posted by: carmella 15th Sep 2014, 12:19pm

QUOTE (gardenqueen @ 15th Sep 2014, 12:44pm) *
Yes, I do believe it is an option to have the postal vote in England too but haven't yet found it to be something I need. Never say never, mind you.

Carmella, I haven't lived in Scotland since 1971 when I moved to London to find my fortune. Still looking, mind you, but it has served me well over the years and once I had my children, then grandchildren, there is no way I would consider living anywhere else now.

Instead I enjoy a lavish lifestyle in Hertfordshire, not!

However, I still have family and friends living in Glasgow and the surrounding areas so take a big interest in the goings on. As I have mentioned before, the decision will affect everyone, not just those living in Scotland. I just hope it all works out for the best, whatever happens. I just can't imagine the aftermath, one way or another, as there will be a lot of people not happy with either decision, I fear.

I also stand by my suggestion that ex pats can see things in a more objective way although I don't think we should get the vote.

I think for ex-pats no matter where they live outside of Scotland or the UK in general, it follows that a time will come when you have your children and following on with that perhaps grandchildren, so it stands to reason you would want your life to be where they are, and where you have known for many years.

I've never had children, but if I lived somewhere other than Scotland, perhaps I would be doing the same thing - we'll never know.

Posted by: lesliemac 15th Sep 2014, 12:27pm

I don't live in Scotland, but I do have an opinion on whether my homeland should be independent or not. My reasons for voting yes in the poll is purely on the democratic principle involved. If a majority of people living in Scotland vote for independence then it should happen. I would vote yes because if you vote No, and the promises made for voting no are reneged upon then the Scottish people would not be able to do anything about it, however if you vote Yes then and the Indpendence Parties renege, the Scots can vote them out of office. That IS democracy. At present we are Governed by a Tory administration and we have only one Tory MP in the whole of Scotland that is NOT democracy.

Posted by: CAT 15th Sep 2014, 02:43pm

What is the single most important issue?
To be in control of our own country and not be governed by Westminster. A proper democracy.

Have you been swayed by one side?
YES I started of undecided and probable NO as I was a fearty Cat. But through GG and lot's of research and discussion it's YES from me.

Have you been impressed by any politicians?
Nicola Sturgeon

Has the media reporting of the referendum been fair?
No just look at the events at the weekend events took place that I only found out about through social media.

Will the result have a long term effect on how we live?
Of course.

Do you just want it all to be over?
YES

Posted by: rumcdonald 15th Sep 2014, 03:01pm

QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 13th Sep 2014, 05:56am) *
Just to say that if I lived in Scotland I would vote YES, but as I don't I dont think its fair that I take part in this poll.

It's fair to give an opinion. I live in Canada, but if I still lived in Scotland, it would be a definite NO for me. Just makes so much common sense. The UK is the most successful union ever. Why break it up?
So many questions never answered by the constantly smirking Mr Salmond. I'm not surprised at all by the number of Yes voters, and the ones that I do know well don't like the English, and that's their real reason for voting Yes. How very sad....and unintelligent. Which ever way Scotland votes, I can only hope it will prosper.

Posted by: CAT 15th Sep 2014, 03:17pm

QUOTE (rumcdonald @ 15th Sep 2014, 04:18pm) *
It's fair to give an opinion. I live in Canada, but if I still lived in Scotland, it would be a definite NO for me. Just makes so much common sense. The UK is the most successful union ever. Why break it up?
So many questions never answered by the constantly smirking Mr Salmond. I'm not surprised at all by the number of Yes voters, and the ones that I do know well don't like the English, and that's their real reason for voting Yes. How very sad....and unintelligent. Which ever way Scotland votes, I can only hope it will prosper.

Living in Scotland a great many of us don't see it as successful. Depends on who it's successful for. Certainly not the every day man or woman. I like England the English people and don't like Alex Salmond. That doesn't make me want to vote No it's successive Westminster Governments short changing us and using us as Guinea pigs. YES means I still like my neighbours, hey in fact I give them a lot of business but I don't want them to run my business or my home.

Posted by: Betsy2009 15th Sep 2014, 04:09pm

QUOTE (rumcdonald @ 15th Sep 2014, 04:18pm) *
It's fair to give an opinion. I live in Canada, but if I still lived in Scotland, it would be a definite NO for me. Just makes so much common sense. The UK is the most successful union ever. Why break it up?
So many questions never answered by the constantly smirking Mr Salmond. I'm not surprised at all by the number of Yes voters, and the ones that I do know well don't like the English, and that's their real reason for voting Yes. How very sad....and unintelligent. Which ever way Scotland votes, I can only hope it will prosper.

Voting Yes because you don't like the English is indeed wrong, not to mention childish. It has nothing to do with 'the English'. The problem is with Westminster.

Everyone's problem is Westminster.

Ask the people who live in the North of England or anywhere outside the London/Counties bubble.

I don't like Salmond either but at least he's smirking amongst the people. The others were afraid they might catch something if they got too close.

Posted by: JanetteMcCormack 15th Sep 2014, 04:59pm

Yes Yes Yes thumbup.gif

Posted by: lubbock 15th Sep 2014, 09:22pm

Why are they not many NO stickers in most windows.simple they don't want them put I .....Just watch the hatred and bullying from the Y mob been cranked up by their esteemed leader .Roll on Friday...bet you don't see some names in this debate again ..VOTE NO

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 15th Sep 2014, 10:02pm

There are no cliffs around the Black Forest for me to jump off. I'd Need a fireman's ladder to tie a rope on a branch of a tree in this forest, they're so tall, and one can only roll down a mountain here in the Black Forest so that leaves the River Rhein and I don't fancy drowning anyway.
What can I do?
My wee sister and her man in Glasgow will vote NO ... because they don't like Salmond!

Shite! Ah don't like Salmond but SCOTLAND would get my YES rolleyes.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 15th Sep 2014, 10:42pm

QUOTE (lubbock @ 15th Sep 2014, 09:39pm) *
Why are they not many NO stickers in most windows.simple they don't want them put I .....Just watch the hatred and bullying from the Y mob been cranked up by their esteemed leader .Roll on Friday...bet you don't see some names in this debate again ..VOTE NO


Are you leaving? biggrin.gif

Posted by: GG 15th Sep 2014, 11:39pm

excl.gif Please remember the instruction in the first post of this topic:

QUOTE
This topic is not meant to replace the extensive http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=25096, but is, rather, intended to capture in a non-judgemental and non-argumentative way a snapshot of members' observations, reflections and thoughts as we approach the referendum.

GG.

Posted by: Tumchie 16th Sep 2014, 12:02am

I grew up in Glasgow, but left in 1972. There were strikes and more strikes. Electricity was rationed. People lined up to get rolls, not bread, as there was no, or little bread. I lived in an all electric flat in Hillhead and simply got completely fed up. At the age of 23 I packed my bags and left. I moved to the south of Spain where I taught in a bilingual school and where I met my husband, an American.
Fast forward to the late seventies and I'm living in Virginia. I go to the post office to send presents to my family in Scotland. Address? Yes, I put Scotland, and then I put the United Kingdom. Isn't that enough? No. The Americans had no clue where Scotland was. They, did, however know where England was! Maam, is Scotland in England? Would that be North England?
Time and time again I would find myself giving a geography lesson.
What does this say about Scotland? That Scotland was so insignificant that the Americans had no clue where it was located? That they thought Scotland was North England?
To this day, not just Americans, but other nationalities as well consider the United Kingdom of Great Britain to be simply England.
Do you really want to be for ever considered a poor relative of the English?
Would voting YES mean that you hate or dislike the English and that that is the one and only reason for your vote? Ha ha.
One important concept I learned from being educated in Scotland was to have an independent mind.
Don't ever forget how valuable our heritage is, and how there is simply no reason to remain under the fine fingers of the elite who have no interest in our welfare.

Posted by: GG 16th Sep 2014, 06:22am

Thank you, Tumchie. Illuminating experiences and a beautiful post. I so agree with you: the referendum is absolutely no reflection on our relationship or attitude to England, it's about us looking forward and finding our place in the world.

This video is most worthy of posting again.


GG.

Posted by: JimB2 16th Sep 2014, 06:42am

QUOTE (RedSkywalker @ 13th Sep 2014, 01:32pm) *
The problem I have with the whole thing is that the question being asked "should Scotland be an independent country" is irrelevant to reality.

Is the UK an independent country? NO it's not because an independent country controls its own borders which the UK is not allowed to by the EU. Does the UK control its own currency? NO because its tied to the EU and has to comply with EU budgetary requirements. Does it control the fishing rights within its waters - NO; the EU does! Does it have free access to world trade - NO it has to comply with EU tariff arrangements - the UK is deep in thrall to the EU and does not meet any definition of "independent" you want to apply.

If there is a YES vote all that will happen is we will continue to be governed by the EU as now!

Had big Eck offered us the choice of an in\out EU vote if we voted YES I'd be all for true independence but he has his eyes firmly on the EU trough and is determined to get his snout in there. So you lot vote however you want - in the end it makes no difference at all!

I am a Glaswegian living in England ,I agree with RedSkywalker to seek Independence and be controlled by the EU is self defeating.

I would be very happy to see a truly Independent Scotland but I do not believe it would be possible currently.

A referendum on remaining part of the EU in my mind should include whether or not we should continue to allow Freedom of Movement.

Posted by: Guest 16th Sep 2014, 06:44am

I saw David Hayman's performance of this work at Oran Mor last night. It was a fine performance and well received by the audience but it did appear to me that the audience was largely made up of those who already intended to vote for independence.

It is interesting that in the post performance discussion Mr Hayman predicted a 60:40 vote for independence.

Posted by: carmella 16th Sep 2014, 06:49am

I would far rather be back to the days when we were independent of the EU.

I would far rather be back to the days when we were independent of the EU.

Posted by: DavidT 16th Sep 2014, 09:44am

GG - how about a GG exit poll on Thursday to compare with official results?
I know we know most posters intent, but what if ktv or lubbock decide to change their minds at the last minute tongue.gif

Posted by: rds60h 16th Sep 2014, 10:55am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 14th Sep 2014, 04:33pm) *
You dont live here, they do, get over it!

I may not live in Scotland, but the decision affects the rest of my life, foreign nationals can and will walk away without any care about any ramifications their vote may cause, irrespective of which way they vote.
If there was such an easily available thriving economy and decent job opportunities do you really think there would be so many ex pats scattered across the rest of the UK, and indeed the rest of the world ?

Lead the Union, Not Leave the Union !!

Posted by: john.mcn 16th Sep 2014, 11:10am

And what is your point? People who move away do not get a say in what direction Scotland takes.. This is to all expats whether they would vote aye or naw, but for some reason it seems to be mostly expat Naw's who have a problem with it.. If you wanted a vote then you should have moved back.

Posted by: zascot 16th Sep 2014, 11:31am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 16th Sep 2014, 11:27am) *
And what is your point? People who move away do not get a say in what direction Scotland takes.. This is to all expats whether they would vote aye or naw, but for some reason it seems to be mostly expat Naw's who have a problem with it.. If you wanted a vote then you should have moved back.

Agreed 100%. I have stayed off of commenting because as you point out I may be Scottish but have spent 2/3 rds of my life in S.A therefore I should not be allowed to influence the decision made on Thursday as it will have no effect on me. I hope that the electorate combined make the right decision and whatever it may be will unite behind it for the greater good of Scotland. Good luck. I have spoken to my family in Scotland and they seem to be split 50/50.

Posted by: gardenqueen 16th Sep 2014, 11:41am

I am disappointed at some of the bad feeling shown on here. I am so glad that I don't experience such attitudes when I go back to Scotland. Most people treat me like I have never been gone, that is the charm of the Scottish people, what brings me back time and time again. It is recognised by the lovely, tolerant people I know, that just because I chose to live elsewhere for one reason or another, that I still love Scotland, where I was born and brought up. Once again, I don't expect to vote in Scotland any more than I would expect to vote in local elections in the next county to where I live.

I am reminded of the attitudes that you see in some sects whereby if someone dares to leave for whatever reason, they are ostracised by their own folks. Very narrow-minded indeed and nobody benefits. Thankfully it is not the norm. Maybe the referendum brings out the worst in some people?

It would be sad if posters, new and old, felt ostracised in this way. It is doubtful that they would wish to check in for more of the same later on.

Posted by: CAT 16th Sep 2014, 01:44pm

QUOTE (lubbock @ 15th Sep 2014, 10:39pm) *
Why are they not many NO stickers in most windows.simple they don't want them put I .....Just watch the hatred and bullying from the Y mob been cranked up by their esteemed leader .Roll on Friday...bet you don't see some names in this debate again ..VOTE NO

Lubbock seems to me there is a fair amount of it on both sides. Just because I am now voting YES does not make me want to bully ridicule or intimidate any one who does not not share my opinion.
I was almost a no myself mainly through fear. There is no place in Scotland for fear, bullying and intimidation. Come 19th September we will all have to get on with it for the sake of our future whatever the result.
One thing for sure, the country will have changed if only because people are taking an interest in who and how we are governed so wether it be Westminster or Holyrood politicians take note "we're watching you".
Och Lubbock just say YES. Go on wink.gif

Posted by: bds1958 16th Sep 2014, 02:21pm

This is probably my final contribution to the debate.

I cannot vote (wish I could) but my previous post shows where my head lies.....not my heart.

Interestingly a family member who lives in Glasgow associated the YES voters to people of a "certain calibre"............I am proud to be the "calibre" of people living in Scotland, and don't forget there are many non born residing Scots, including English, who know that a YES vote is the right vote, who know this is the right vote ...............FOR SCOTLAND.

For "Project Fear" to hint that Scotland could not manage it's affairs 100% on the World stage is a derisory accusation to a race who helped shape the modern world (read the history books).

So if it is a YES vote on Thursday Scotland will go forward as a confident Independent nation led by people who have Scotland's interests at heart.. If it's a "business as usual" vote then Planet Westminster/SouthEast will continue to use Scotland as the "cash cow" it's been for over the last 30 years, to the detriment of the people of Scotland.

As for the Salmond attackers, at least he got the country to this momentous moment in time.....give him credit for that. If it is YES then he wont be in a job after 18 months because Scotland will have it's own political road map............dictated by the PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND.

"Slainte mhath".

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 16th Sep 2014, 02:49pm

QUOTE (CharingCross @ 15th Sep 2014, 09:08am) *
I have always held the view that a vote IS PRIVATE.

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 15th Sep 2014, 09:22am) *
Surely it is private in the sense that nobody is forced to divulge the information, but if one chooses to declare one's position, where is the harm ? One can be entitled to privacy without exercising the right.

Let`s not kid ourselves. With stakes so high, if you`re precious something-for-nothing lifestyle was on the chopping block and you, as head of whaterver-run-Council, has "watching rights" over as-yet-unopened postal votes, you will damn well grab a sneak peek-a-boo. Whether trying to read it before a strong light bulb or an x-ray machine.

yes.gif yes.gif yes.gif

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 16th Sep 2014, 02:56pm

QUOTE (Tumchie @ 16th Sep 2014, 01:19am) *
I grew up in Glasgow, but left in 1972. There were strikes and more strikes. Electricity was rationed. People lined up to get rolls, not bread, as there was no, or little bread. I lived in an all electric flat in Hillhead and simply got completely fed up. At the age of 23 I packed my bags and left. I moved to the south of Spain where I taught in a bilingual school and where I met my husband, an American.
Fast forward to the late seventies and I'm living in Virginia. I go to the post office to send presents to my family in Scotland. Address? Yes, I put Scotland, and then I put the United Kingdom. Isn't that enough? No. The Americans had no clue where Scotland was. They, did, however know where England was! Maam, is Scotland in England? Would that be North England?
Time and time again I would find myself giving a geography lesson.
What does this say about Scotland? That Scotland was so insignificant that the Americans had no clue where it was located? That they thought Scotland was North England?
To this day, not just Americans, but other nationalities as well consider the United Kingdom of Great Britain to be simply England.
Do you really want to be for ever considered a poor relative of the English?
Would voting YES mean that you hate or dislike the English and that that is the one and only reason for your vote? Ha ha.
One important concept I learned from being educated in Scotland was to have an independent mind.
Don't ever forget how valuable our heritage is, and how there is simply no reason to remain under the fine fingers of the elite who have no interest in our welfare.

We are. While, pathetically, also their biggest benefactor.

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 16th Sep 2014, 03:03pm

QUOTE (rds60h @ 16th Sep 2014, 12:12pm) *
I may not live in Scotland, but the decision affects the rest of my life, foreign nationals can and will walk away without any care about any ramifications their vote may cause, irrespective of which way they vote.
If there was such an easily available thriving economy and decent job opportunities do you really think there would be so many ex pats scattered across the rest of the UK, and indeed the rest of the world ?

Lead the Union, Not Leave the Union !!

I believe you`ve debunked your own query. And the reason why there are so many ex pats scattered across the rest of the UK is because Herr Glorious Thather deliberately and maliciously holocausted the UK`s manufacturing economy.

If you stayed here, you`d be better clued up and would`ve know that. Probably have been unfortunate enough to have experienced it too, maybe...

Posted by: Paulie 16th Sep 2014, 05:45pm

As another expat, my British/Eu passport is about to be renewed….so the question is, what is the status of my new passport. I can't see it being Scottish if it's a "YES" vote, it's going to take years to get that up and running.
Anyone with any answers to this perplexing question for myself, and probably for worldwide Scottish expats.

Posted by: gardenqueen 16th Sep 2014, 08:07pm

QUOTE (Paulie @ 16th Sep 2014, 07:02pm) *
As another expat, my British/Eu passport is about to be renewed….so the question is, what is the status of my new passport. I can't see it being Scottish if it's a "YES" vote, it's going to take years to get that up and running.
Anyone with any answers to this perplexing question for myself, and probably for worldwide Scottish expats.

Can't say I've given it any thought. I have years left on my current passport. I expect I will be renewing it in the years to come with exactly what I have now.

Posted by: farrochie 16th Sep 2014, 08:28pm

QUOTE (gardenqueen @ 16th Sep 2014, 09:24pm) *
Can't say I've given it any thought. I have years left on my current passport. I expect I will be renewing it in the years to come with exactly what I have now.

Passports are explained on page 273 of Scotland's Future. Always a good place to start if you have questions.

http://scotreferendum.com/reports/scotlands-future-your-guide-to-an-independent-scotland/

There will be a transitional arrangement. For instance, Scotland could contract the UK Passport Office in Glasgow to issue Scottish Passports; after all it is an official EU passport too. UK passports will be recognised by the Scottish Government till their expiry date,.
Although I've recently renewed my UK passport, I'll be exchanging mine for a Scottish Passport as soon as this becomes available.

Posted by: farrochie 16th Sep 2014, 08:32pm

By the way, "The Scottish Government will also allow dual citizenship" p272 Scotland's Future.

So no need to give up your British, Irish, Canadian, Australian etc. smile.gif

Posted by: farrochie 16th Sep 2014, 08:41pm

CORRECTION

I've just checked Part 5 of Scotland's Future.

381. When can I get my Scottish Passport

We plan that Scottish citizens will be able to apply for Scottish passports from the date of independence.


That's 24th March 2016

Posted by: *mike* 17th Sep 2014, 10:36am

As an English man I hope the Scots vote Yes, and get rid of the banksters debt from round their necks and also put a stop to third world colonisation, that if not stopped will destroy the nation of Scotland.

Posted by: weepearl 17th Sep 2014, 12:34pm

My late mother was a Glaswegian. All my family still live there. All voting for No.
I feel saddened that that in life we all pull together in life.
That separating UK is the end of civilization, as we have all known it.
The furor that will happen is so many many ways. Sad to see.
Just look at SIreland
. Where the rest of my family live. The biggest regret of their lives!

Posted by: john.mcn 17th Sep 2014, 12:41pm

Thats a few times i've heard NI pop up, is this the new scarey story being put out there. I know plenty of people who are voting YES who would not dream of hating someone just because they vote no, i also have a few friends who are voting NO who are exactly the same, it is a political decision and i have not heard of pitched battles between brothers, husband and wifes or workmates...
Now i'm not saying there aren't some unsavoury characters out there, pop on a fruit flavoured facebook page and you'll see them wink.gif, but to suggest there will be divisions along the lines of that piece of land over there is preposterous.

Posted by: BridgetKate 17th Sep 2014, 01:37pm

I tried to post this yesterday

The economic argie bargie is inward looking and diverts attention from wider Issues. Independence would diminish both our and the Remnant UK’s influence in World Politics and Economics

The weakened rump of the UK would have less influence in the EU, the G8 and NATO; and the possibility losing its place as a permanent membership in an expanded UN Security Council if the suggested criteria for expansion are implemented

Scotland would have to apply for membership to both the E U and NATO and there is no guarantee that these applications would be successful; even if her EU application was successful the pre-accession period is as long as it takes for “the candidate country to adapt its institutions, standards and infrastructure to enable it to meet its obligations as a member state”

Therefore an independent Scotland and the remnant UK would have little or no influence in Global Politics and Economics. This coupled with an erosion of the Armed Forces and Intelligence Sector would h have an adverse effect the prosperity and Security of both Scotland and the remaining British States.

At present the English people who feel disenfranchised are lobbying to change the Political Status quo while Northern Ireland and Wales want further devolution.

Surely it is more beneficial to support those who share our antipathy to the UK’s undemocratic system to change it rather than impeding the prosperity and weakening the security of all who share our Islands by splitting us apart?

Posted by: bds1958 17th Sep 2014, 02:23pm

Don't know about you but I'm definitely having 2nd thoughts now................... laugh.gif







thumbup.gif

Posted by: lubbock 17th Sep 2014, 06:13pm

Wow so many NO supporters out and about the South-Side ..Wonderful camaraderie and optimism ...Everyone's feeling very positive ...Gordon's speech seemed to galvaniise their efforts...what a fantastic feeling that victory is just about here ...the y team are on the ropes people who were unsure can finally see through the lies of the T mob...Going out again for a drive about flags waving horns tooting can't wait till Friday...VOTE NO ...

Posted by: bilbo.s 17th Sep 2014, 06:56pm

Meanwhile in the real world.................

..

Posted by: DennisWard100 17th Sep 2014, 07:21pm

Asking ourselves 'What does it mean to be Scottish' is not the answer. 'Who are you as a person' would be more appropriate. If you think you'll be better off as an independent nation then vote 'yes' but please don't think that hurling stones at those you feel are 'less worthy' will endear the world to you. I'll soon be 50 years old, and feel deeply sadened that Britain might be split in two by Friday morning. I love Scotland and I'm very proud to be Scottish but I don't get up in the morning and wrap my saltire around myself on the way to work. I, like many others, just try to work for my family to make ends meet. Our government got it wrong BIG TIME, the whole of Britain showed that in the polls earlier this year. Were not happy with the mass imigration which fueled the goverment to come up with a (made-up) taxation called 'Bedroom Tax'... In our hearts we will always be Scottish, so vote with heads not hearts, and vote without animosity. Thank you.

QUOTE

Posted by: mairead 17th Sep 2014, 07:22pm

Westminster has lied for many years during ordinary election campaigns so I don't believe the wild scary stories they are telling now. I think it is not the danger to Scotland that has the three amigos chasing their tails around Scotland, it is the danger to the treasury at Wesminster and England. I can remember when we asked for an assembly in 1979 and were told, oh, if that goes through, you will lose your steelworks, your coal mines, your shipyards and your car plant. The assembly was rejected because of this and guess what. A couple of years later we lost Ravenscraig and our steel, the shipyards went, the mines closed and Linwood's car plant shut. Now they are trotting out the same old lies and scary stories but I hope the people of our fair city and our country remember all the past lies. I do and I will not forget. It's yes for me and my family are all thinking the same

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 17th Sep 2014, 07:34pm

QUOTE
QUOTE
DennisWard100

...I'll soon be 50 years old, and feel deeply sadened that Britain might be split in two by Friday morning.

Just now had a very interesting chat with my English mate Bob who lives down in the town here. He'd called me up to ask if I knew exactly how big a margin would be required to carry the Referendum one way or the other and which way I'd have gone had I been able to vote.
I explained my ties to England through Family and Military Service there and envisioned even a continuation of a Joint National Defence Corps (France and Germany formed one such in the '80s which still exists today) and how an Independent Scotland could still work well together with the rest of the British Isles etc. etc. ... and that my vote would have certainly been a YES.
At the end I asked him how he felt as an English guy; and one whose family name dates back to the original Royal Swan-hangers of old, about the possible break up of the United Kingdom.
His answer surprised me somewhat.

"Do you know, Tomi, I think it would be no bad thing at all: In fact I think it's about high time that the remaining assumptions of the existance still of some part of that Great British Empire was finally late to rest."
I've known Bob through our work together on aircraft contracts over 30 years and more and I've always regarded him as nothing less than a thinking man.
But who among us would have taken that point of view?

Posted by: *Shirley* 18th Sep 2014, 05:01am

Well said Tomi, both by you and your dear friend. Like the gentleman in the video says... it's time for all of us to recognise that this Empire thing of the past had to be put away and that we all must look to the future as equals who respect each other and everyone else. S x.

Posted by: farrochie 18th Sep 2014, 07:43am

QUOTE (BridgetKate @ 17th Sep 2014, 02:54pm) *
At present the English people who feel disenfranchised are lobbying to change the Political Status quo while Northern Ireland and Wales want further devolution.

Surely it is more beneficial to support those who share our antipathy to the UK’s undemocratic system to change it rather than impeding the prosperity and weakening the security of all who share our Islands by splitting us apart?

Virtually all parties in Westminster are committed to maintaining the status quo, the system of patronage and honours that takes successful MPs and turns them into unelected Lords, that shuffles them into well paid directorships and speech making tours, that places them into senior positions in consultancies, that offers them cushy numbers in European institutions. The system that has a myriad hangers on, subsidised lunches and expensive support to second homes.

The Westminster parties may appear to offer change. They will delay and obfuscate; they will not change the status quo. Most MPs are now simply careerists.

Posted by: Talisman 19th Sep 2014, 03:26am

QUOTE (farrochie @ 16th Sep 2014, 08:49pm) *
By the way, "The Scottish Government will also allow dual citizenship" p272 Scotland's Future.

So no need to give up your British, Irish, Canadian, Australian etc. smile.gif

That's great to know mate. I have an Australian passport, I did have a British one. I am still entitled to dual nationality and as most of my relatives through my wife are Canadian I can apply for citizenship there. Irish is the only odd one out as my mother lived there as a child but I don't think she was a citizen. Can I also get a Scottish passport? I would love one if only to frame above the bed or use it to cross the border to England.

Soar Alba.

Posted by: bilbo.s 19th Sep 2014, 06:42am

QUOTE (Talisman @ 19th Sep 2014, 05:43am) *
That's great to know mate. I have an Australian passport, I did have a British one. I am still entitled to dual nationality and as most of my relatives through my wife are Canadian I can apply for citizenship there. Irish is the only odd one out as my mother lived there as a child but I don't think she was a citizen. Can I also get a Scottish passport? I would love one if only to frame above the bed or use it to cross the border to England.

Soar Alba.


Dream on ! sad.gif


QUOTE (Talisman @ 19th Sep 2014, 05:43am) *
That's great to know mate. I have an Australian passport, I did have a British one. I am still entitled to dual nationality and as most of my relatives through my wife are Canadian I can apply for citizenship there. Irish is the only odd one out as my mother lived there as a child but I don't think she was a citizen. Can I also get a Scottish passport? I would love one if only to frame above the bed or use it to cross the border to England.

Soar Alba.


Dream on ! sad.gif

Posted by: RonD 19th Sep 2014, 09:22am

It will be interesting to see if Westminster follow through on the ¨Vow¨ and I saw an interesting article on the tellie while I was in Scotland last week that mroe and more English want an English parlaiment. I think that is an excellent idea for I am sure that certain parts of England aren´t getting fair representation from Westminster also.

Posted by: bilbo.s 19th Sep 2014, 10:20am

Ron,

I am all in favour of an English Parliament, as long as they get shot of the other one, including the obscene Lords. That , in effect, would have been the result of a YES vote. Too late, baby !

Westminster has not made any pledges or vows, quite the contrary. The 3 Stooges signed a meaningless piece of paper.

Posted by: john.mcn 19th Sep 2014, 11:06am

There has been calls for a separate English assembly for years, you might argue that Westminster is the English parliament. The house of lords is an affront to democracy filled with stuck up $^$&£&%£&$ and failed politicians. They do not represent anyone but themselves and the party who put them there, i think people throughout these islands agree with that.

Posted by: Kemedian 19th Sep 2014, 11:11am

Preventing Scottish MPs from voting on English matters will create an English Parliament. I can see it happening. A Scottish PM would however have to vote on all matters British, including English ones.

Posted by: bilbo.s 19th Sep 2014, 11:53am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 19th Sep 2014, 01:28pm) *
Preventing Scottish MPs from voting on English matters will create an English Parliament. I can see it happening. A Scottish PM would however have to vote on all matters British, including English ones.


Remember, when you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It is only painful for others. The same applies when you are stupid.

Posted by: Kemedian 19th Sep 2014, 11:57am

I will.

Posted by: Dave Grieve 19th Sep 2014, 11:58am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 19th Sep 2014, 01:23pm) *
There has been calls for a separate English assembly for years, you might argue that Westminster is the English parliament. The house of lords is an affront to democracy filled with stuck up $^$&£&%£&$ and failed politicians. They do not represent anyone but themselves and the party who put them there, i think people throughout these islands agree with that.


If there is one political change I would like to see now, that is the abolition of the House of Parasites oops Lords.

Posted by: bilbo.s 19th Sep 2014, 12:04pm

QUOTE (Dave Grieve @ 19th Sep 2014, 02:15pm) *
If there is one political change I would like to see now, that is the abolition of the House of Parasites oops Lords.


Fat chance, Dave. It is one of the main incentives to enter politics in UK. Who is going to vote to abolish it - Labour, Tories, LibDems ?

Posted by: Heather 19th Sep 2014, 01:40pm

So the NO voter's fell for Cameron and his cohorts who were in a panic incase Scotland voted YES.

Did it not occur to them why Cameron was worried about losing Scotland who is rich in oil and gas worth billions of pounds. With all those riches, why do we have hundreds of children living in poverty and Food Banks.

One disgusted Scot. sad.gif

Posted by: lubbock 19th Sep 2014, 01:42pm

Who the hell does Sheridan think he is ..saying that people were scared by the big supermarkets into voting NO because they threatened to raise prices ...the mans an embarrassment always was but even more so now .No doubt he will prolong the conspiracy theory and continue to dupe the those silly enough to listen to his garbage .

Posted by: CAT 19th Sep 2014, 01:53pm

Lubbock does it matter now? Join me in the cyber pub for a wee refreshment first rounds on me.

Posted by: lubbock 19th Sep 2014, 02:15pm

Yeah your right....I'll have a fresh orange please ..."And barman a couple of wee dry Sherries for a couple of friends of mine" ....apologies to Peter MacFarlane.....

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 20th Sep 2014, 01:53pm

QUOTE (lubbock @ 19th Sep 2014, 02:59pm) *
Who the hell does Sheridan think he is ..saying that people were scared by the big supermarkets into voting NO because they threatened to raise prices ...the mans an embarrassment always was but even more so now .No doubt he will prolong the conspiracy theory and continue to dupe the those silly enough to listen to his garbage .


He didn`t say. He merely contextualised the latent implied threat made by certain big supermarkets. And they will raise them anyway. And pull jobs, first and foremost from Scotland, when bad times come.

Business as usual...

Posted by: rds60h 20th Sep 2014, 08:00pm

QUOTE (Heather @ 19th Sep 2014, 02:57pm) *
So the NO voter's fell for Cameron and his cohorts who were in a panic incase Scotland voted YES.

Did it not occur to them why Cameron was worried about losing Scotland who is rich in oil and gas worth billions of pounds. With all those riches, why do we have hundreds of children living in poverty and Food Banks.

One disgusted Scot. sad.gif


And you don't think there other families in the same position in England, Wales and Northern Ireland ?
That is why we need to be together, as we will be stronger together and will be able to make Westminster sit up and realise that there is a world outside of London !
3 Nations with one voice will be much stronger than one nation on its own, remember the old adage of "Divide and Conquer" we will all achieve more with "Unite and Rule".

Posted by: Kemedian 20th Sep 2014, 10:11pm

QUOTE (rds60h @ 20th Sep 2014, 09:17pm) *
And you don't think there other families in the same position in England, Wales and Northern Ireland ?
That is why we need to be together, as we will be stronger together and will be able to make Westminster sit up and realise that there is a world outside of London !
3 Nations with one voice will be much stronger than one nation on its own, remember the old adage of "Divide and Conquer" we will all achieve more with "Unite and Rule".

Well put. I never thought of it like that. thumbup.gif

Posted by: wombat 20th Sep 2014, 10:22pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 20th Sep 2014, 10:28pm) *
Well put. I never thought of it like that. thumbup.gif


laugh.gif unite and RULE who ? clown.gif :clownS

Posted by: Kemedian 20th Sep 2014, 10:33pm

QUOTE (wombat @ 20th Sep 2014, 11:39pm) *
laugh.gif unite and RULE who ? clown.gif :clownS

Ourselves tongue.gif

Posted by: wombat 20th Sep 2014, 10:47pm

laugh.gif Mwha haaaaaaaaahaaaaanarchy ? perra clown.gifs

Posted by: john.mcn 20th Sep 2014, 10:55pm

QUOTE (rds60h @ 20th Sep 2014, 08:17pm) *
And you don't think there other families in the same position in England, Wales and Northern Ireland ?
That is why we need to be together, as we will be stronger together and will be able to make Westminster sit up and realise that there is a world outside of London !
3 Nations with one voice will be much stronger than one nation on its own, remember the old adage of "Divide and Conquer" we will all achieve more with "Unite and Rule".


Really? The people i knew who voted NO did not give a flying **** about the people in the other 3 countries, their decision was about them, their jobs, house and family.. I didn't really hear much about 'unity' from anyone but politicians.

Posted by: Kemedian 20th Sep 2014, 11:15pm

Say it two million times, your signature says. Needed more than that.

Posted by: john.mcn 21st Sep 2014, 12:18am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 20th Sep 2014, 11:32pm) *
Say it two million times, your signature says. Needed more than that.



Whats up, did you honestly think that everyone was going to link hands sing kumbaya and hug saying we are all better together, sorry to burst your wee bubble but after all those scare stories did you think people where voting NO because they thought they were better together.

I may keep the sig, i was also thinking of making a wee 45 avatar but i'm kinda attached to scooby, i just like having a scooby when i know others dont biggrin.gif

Posted by: Kemedian 21st Sep 2014, 01:07am

I see much being made about the 45%. Don't forget the 47% ?

Posted by: Glasgow Guest 21st Sep 2014, 07:52am

QUOTE
... did you think people where voting NO because they thought they were better together.

I voted NO for what I consider to be very good reasons; these reasons did not include fear.

Posted by: john.mcn 21st Sep 2014, 09:03am

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 21st Sep 2014, 01:24am) *
I see much being made about the 45%. Don't forget the 47% ?


The 45 were a strong YES, we have hope, equality and a 'can do' attitude, better togethers message was more like worse off apart, how many who voted NO will come to regret that choice they made in the coming years.

Posted by: rds60h 21st Sep 2014, 10:08am

QUOTE (john.mcn @ 21st Sep 2014, 12:12am) *
Really? The people i knew who voted NO did not give a flying **** about the people in the other 3 countries, their decision was about them, their jobs, house and family.. I didn't really hear much about 'unity' from anyone but politicians.


So, the NO voters only cared about their jobs, house and family..................are you therefore saying the YES voters didn't give a jot about their jobs, house and family ?
Perhaps that describes those who voted with their hearts and not their heads. Independence appears a wonderful thing until all of the realities are seriously considered and all assumed actions are properly investigated and answered. There were far too many assumptions of we can use this and we can use that system. The assumed usage of UK systems that are utilised by Scotland as part of the UK to be allowed after leaving that Union is crass stupidity and arrogance and much of the Independence plan was based on those type of plans.
It must be remembered that Politics is the same as the School Play Ground, and it would have been a case of "It's my ball and I'm going home".
Nothing had been properly questioned, take for instance the EU situation, nothing had been officially ascertained. It had been "said" that Scotland would have to re-apply to join because they would have been a "new" country ....................there would have also been another "new" country in the same situation, because the UK would not have been the UK anymore. So should the ruling not apply to both new countries ?
No proper investigation, no proper preparation, no proper communication, no proper consideration and no proper answers.
The heart may have said Yes but the head said NO.
The requirement now is to let Westminster know that all of us outside of London want to be treated fairly and that can be achieved with the voices in England and Wales and Northern Ireland combining with Scotland, which will be a much Louder and Stronger Voice than a lone Scottish voice.

Posted by: john.mcn 21st Sep 2014, 10:55am

QUOTE (rds60h @ 21st Sep 2014, 10:25am) *
So, the NO voters only cared about their jobs, house and family..................are you therefore saying the YES voters didn't give a jot about their jobs, house and family ?

Read my comment again, in fact keep reading it until you take in what i wrote.. Here i'll make it clearer 'the people i know', i dont speak for No'ers anymore that i speak for Yes'ers
QUOTE
Perhaps that describes those who voted with their hearts and not their heads. Independence appears a wonderful thing until all of the realities are seriously considered and all assumed actions are properly investigated and answered. There were far too many assumptions of we can use this and we can use that system. The assumed usage of UK systems that are utilised by Scotland as part of the UK to be allowed after leaving that Union is crass stupidity and arrogance and much of the Independence plan was based on those type of plans.

Nothing to do with 'heart' at all, i dont romanticise Scotland as a heather, hills and glens with sheep and deer grazing side by side.. I grew up in a scheme, i know exactly what reality looks like. Scotland would be entitled to a share of the UK's moveable assets, we have paid for them all our lives so you can be damn sure we would get them. Other issues would be worked around, thats what people do, they negotiate, debate, argue, fight until they reach agreement.
QUOTE
It must be remembered that Politics is the same as the School Play Ground, and it would have been a case of "It's my ball and I'm going home".
Nothing had been properly questioned, take for instance the EU situation, nothing had been officially ascertained. It had been "said" that Scotland would have to re-apply to join because they would have been a "new" country ....................there would have also been another "new" country in the same situation, because the UK would not have been the UK anymore. So should the ruling not apply to both new countries ?

Scotland would not be a 'new' country if the rUK agreed it was an amicable split, with the EU there would again be negotiations, just as rUK would have to renegotiate it's position due to be a smaller Union. If we for some reason became outside the EU, no biggie as other countries manage fine without being in the EU.
QUOTE
No proper investigation, no proper preparation, no proper communication, no proper consideration and no proper answers.

I agree completely...ohh wait we are talking about the Unionist parties vow to Scotland aren't we?
QUOTE
The heart may have said Yes but the head said NO.

The heart does not think, i'm pretty sure it's sole purpose is as a blood pump, i voted YES with my head, i'm in no doubt whatsoever it is in the peoples own interests to run our own country.
QUOTE
The requirement now is to let Westminster know that all of us outside of London want to be treated fairly and that can be achieved with the voices in England and Wales and Northern Ireland combining with Scotland, which will be a much Louder and Stronger Voice than a lone Scottish voice.

Now who isn't thinking with their head, if 45% of the people here didn't believe that what hope do you think there is of convincing everyone outside the south east of it..

What should be the only requirement now is forcing the 3 parties who made promises to get their arse in gear.

Posted by: Kemedian 21st Sep 2014, 12:31pm

QUOTE (rds60h @ 21st Sep 2014, 11:25am) *
So, the NO voters only cared about their jobs, house and family..................are you therefore saying the YES voters didn't give a jot about their jobs, house and family ?
Perhaps that describes those who voted with their hearts and not their heads. Independence appears a wonderful thing until all of the realities are seriously considered and all assumed actions are properly investigated and answered. There were far too many assumptions of we can use this and we can use that system. The assumed usage of UK systems that are utilised by Scotland as part of the UK to be allowed after leaving that Union is crass stupidity and arrogance and much of the Independence plan was based on those type of plans.
It must be remembered that Politics is the same as the School Play Ground, and it would have been a case of "It's my ball and I'm going home".
Nothing had been properly questioned, take for instance the EU situation, nothing had been officially ascertained. It had been "said" that Scotland would have to re-apply to join because they would have been a "new" country ....................there would have also been another "new" country in the same situation, because the UK would not have been the UK anymore. So should the ruling not apply to both new countries ?
No proper investigation, no proper preparation, no proper communication, no proper consideration and no proper answers.
The heart may have said Yes but the head said NO.
The requirement now is to let Westminster know that all of us outside of London want to be treated fairly and that can be achieved with the voices in England and Wales and Northern Ireland combining with Scotland, which will be a much Louder and Stronger Voice than a lone Scottish voice.

I would have appreciated a voice like yours throughout the debate.

I refused to be 'feart' and one of the 'silent' majority on here, but it wasn't easy. Believe you me.

thumbup.gif thumbup.gif thumbup.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 21st Sep 2014, 12:39pm

QUOTE (Kemedian @ 21st Sep 2014, 12:48pm) *
I would have appreciated a voice like yours throughout the debate.

I refused to be 'feart' and one of the 'silent' majority on here, but it wasn't easy. Believe you me.

thumbup.gif thumbup.gif thumbup.gif


If you check the polls here then you'll see you were not in the majority, you were part of the [very] vocal minority.. Glasgow forum mind, Glasgow voted YES!!

Posted by: Kemedian 21st Sep 2014, 01:51pm

Aye, it did. But no by much. It was [very] close. yes.gif

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 21st Sep 2014, 02:51pm

QUOTE (rds60h @ 21st Sep 2014, 11:25am) *
The requirement now is to let Westminster know that all of us outside of London want to be treated fairly and that can be achieved with the voices in England and Wales and Northern Ireland combining with Scotland, which will be a much Louder and Stronger Voice than a lone Scottish voice.


So that`s what we`ve been doing wrong all these years!! Thanks. We`ll get right on it! laugh.gif Where have you been living the last 35 years? ohmy.gif

Posted by: rds60h 21st Sep 2014, 09:31pm

QUOTE (Ruchazie Rat @ 21st Sep 2014, 04:08pm) *
So that`s what we`ve been doing wrong all these years!! Thanks. We`ll get right on it! laugh.gif Where have you been living the last 35 years? ohmy.gif


Well, judging by your comments you have been aiding Westminster by weakening the chance of a united stronger voice.
Your reaction to staying part of the Union is the sort of reaction that will suit Westminster, where the ordinary man on the street turns against each other, in much the same way they managed to do by vilifying anyone on Benefits by making it appear that the unemployed were living an easier life than many lower paid workers who were paying for the unemployed to enjoy their wonderful lifestyle....................utter bullsh*t, but it deflected from the likes of the obscene bonuses for bankers and the tax avoidance by big businesses.

Posted by: lubbock 21st Sep 2014, 11:01pm

The Vow.
I hearby declare that we of the "old 45" do not accept the democratic decision by the people of Scotland to remain in the Union.It's no fair we were cheated ,we wuz robbed,we will continue to berate ,insult and fall out with anyone we find voted with the majority resulting in Scotland voting NO.We reject all attempts at reconciliation we want.No we demand a recount,please gonna mister ,Am telling ma big sister Oan you.. Join us on moanmoanmoan.com.Or if you want to jump ship try allthefives.com

Posted by: bilbo.s 22nd Sep 2014, 07:40am

QUOTE (lubbock @ 22nd Sep 2014, 01:18am) *
The Vow.
I hearby declare that we of the "old 45" do not accept the democratic decision by the people of Scotland to remain in the Union.It's no fair we were cheated ,we wuz robbed,we will continue to berate ,insult and fall out with anyone we find voted with the majority resulting in Scotland voting NO.We reject all attempts at reconciliation we want.No we demand a recount,please gonna mister ,Am telling ma big sister Oan you.. Join us on moanmoanmoan.com.Or if you want to jump ship try allthefives.com


More broken promises by Unionists. You said the other day that you were for the offski. I can take the pain of the referendum result, but not this.

Posted by: Mathieson 22nd Sep 2014, 10:25am

QUOTE (lubbock @ 22nd Sep 2014, 12:18am) *
The Vow.
I hearby declare that we of the "old 45" do not accept the democratic decision by the people of Scotland to remain in the Union.It's no fair we were cheated ,we wuz robbed,we will continue to berate ,insult and fall out with anyone we find voted with the majority resulting in Scotland voting NO.We reject all attempts at reconciliation we want.No we demand a recount,please gonna mister ,Am telling ma big sister Oan you.. Join us on moanmoanmoan.com.Or if you want to jump ship try allthefives.com


laugh.gif Superb. Surely it's 'the 44.7' though?

Posted by: john.mcn 22nd Sep 2014, 11:09am

QUOTE (Mathieson @ 22nd Sep 2014, 10:42am) *
laugh.gif Superb. Surely it's 'the 44.7' though?


Nah we had a poll and it returned 100% so we're changing it to that tongue.gif

Posted by: rds60h 22nd Sep 2014, 03:50pm

QUOTE (lubbock @ 22nd Sep 2014, 12:18am) *
The Vow.
I hearby declare that we of the "old 45" do not accept the democratic decision by the people of Scotland to remain in the Union.It's no fair we were cheated ,we wuz robbed,we will continue to berate ,insult and fall out with anyone we find voted with the majority resulting in Scotland voting NO.We reject all attempts at reconciliation we want.No we demand a recount,please gonna mister ,Am telling ma big sister Oan you.. Join us on moanmoanmoan.com.Or if you want to jump ship try allthefives.com


Thank you Lubbock, that gave me a big smile.

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 22nd Sep 2014, 03:56pm

QUOTE (Ruchazie Rat @ 21st Sep 2014, 04:08pm) *
So that`s what we`ve been doing wrong all these years!! Thanks. We`ll get right on it! laugh.gif Where have you been living the last 35 years? ohmy.gif

QUOTE (rds60h @ 21st Sep 2014, 10:48pm) *
Well, judging by your comments you have been aiding Westminster by weakening the chance of a united stronger voice.
Your reaction to staying part of the Union is the sort of reaction that will suit Westminster, where the ordinary man on the street turns against each other, in much the same way they managed to do by vilifying anyone on Benefits by making it appear that the unemployed were living an easier life than many lower paid workers who were paying for the unemployed to enjoy their wonderful lifestyle....................utter bullsh*t, but it deflected from the likes of the obscene bonuses for bankers and the tax avoidance by big businesses.

QUOTE (rds60h @ 21st Sep 2014, 10:48pm) *
Well, judging by your comments you have been aiding Westminster by weakening the chance of a united stronger voice.

Your reaction to staying part of the Union is the sort of reaction that will suit Westminster, where the ordinary man on the street turns against each other


You forget the 70`s and 80`s? Plenty of proof there about the man in the street being united against the Establishment. But completely ignored. Remember how they "resolved" all those pesky miners`pickets? Pseudo-military policing bussed up from The Big Smoke.

Perhaps you also forget how we patiently kept the faith during both Thatcher`s reign and Major`s, during which there was a recession (boom-and-bust), guest-starring 15% interest rates. Ouch! Watch out mugs daft enough to buy into Thatchie`s "Jam Tomorrow" property con. Left to take up the slack. Huge repossessions. Now, at the end of our brotherly unified 79-87 stretch, how were we rewarded? Tony Blair. Arch Superscab and traitor of anything and everything he ever claimed to have believed in. Aided and abetted by an army of turncoats in his own party.

The reason why we choose a radical alternative, independence, is because "keeping the faith" is, ultimately, useless. I`d tried that for nearly 50 years. All my life. No more. No one arrives at the inescapable conclusion independence cannot possibly be any worse, and therefore must be given a chance, over the course of a weekend bender with his mates up the Student Union boozer.

It usually arrives at the end of a long, painful, costly and, ultimately, fruitless journey.

Posted by: Dylan 22nd Sep 2014, 04:26pm

I think you will find Thatcher was PM during the Miners Strike followed by Major !.

Posted by: zascot 22nd Sep 2014, 04:39pm

I must admit that the 70`s were the best time for me. Could`nt get a job after serving my time so I left in `71. Hav`nt looked back since. Reading the comments and arguments here thank God I did

Posted by: bilbo.s 22nd Sep 2014, 04:44pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 22nd Sep 2014, 06:43pm) *
I think you will find Thatcher was PM during the Miners Strike followed by Major !.



Where did he say otherwise ? wacko.gif

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 22nd Sep 2014, 05:30pm

QUOTE (Dylan @ 22nd Sep 2014, 05:43pm) *
I think you will find Thatcher was PM during the Miners Strike followed by Major !.


Correct. I don`t see where I misquote that in my post. Well? The "they" I mention, (You forget the 70`s and 80`s? Plenty of proof there about the man in the street being united against the Establishment. But completely ignored. Remember how they "resolved" all those pesky miners`pickets? Pseudo-military policing bussed up from The Big Smoke), clearly refers to the powers-that-be aka the Establishment.

If you can`t see that, well....

wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 22nd Sep 2014, 05:36pm

Ratty, I thought you would be used to Dylan logic by now. laugh.gif

Posted by: Dylan 22nd Sep 2014, 05:53pm

QUOTE (Ruchazie Rat @ 22nd Sep 2014, 06:47pm) *
Correct. I don`t see where I misquote that in my post. Well? The "they" I mention, (You forget the 70`s and 80`s? Plenty of proof there about the man in the street being united against the Establishment. But completely ignored. Remember how they "resolved" all those pesky miners`pickets? Pseudo-military policing bussed up from The Big Smoke), clearly refers to the powers-that-be aka the Establishment.

If you can`t see that, well....

wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif


I just thought you should know..

Every day is a school day !

Posted by: lubbock 22nd Sep 2014, 09:24pm

I forgot to ask ...the yes supporters ..remember them....Want an Independant Glasgow (Have you ever heard such rubbish) Independance from who ,what why where ?Give me the costings ,the figures,the facts..who's going to pay for what ..Who will be in charge...will they rid Glasgow of NO supporters...A society full of yes men and yes woman ,Yes sir three bags full Sir ....a dream world for dreamers ....... A nightmare fior realists.....But really I give it a couple of weeks and all this rebellious rhetoric Will be but a distant memory.

Posted by: Betsy2009 22nd Sep 2014, 09:30pm

Oh deary me!

Posted by: john.mcn 22nd Sep 2014, 09:35pm

QUOTE (lubbock @ 22nd Sep 2014, 09:41pm) *
I forgot to ask ...the yes supporters ..remember them....Want an Independant Glasgow (Have you ever heard such rubbish) Independance from who ,what why where ?Give me the costings ,the figures,the facts..who's going to pay for what ..Who will be in charge...will they rid Glasgow of NO supporters...A society full of yes men and yes woman ,Yes sir three bags full Sir ....a dream world for dreamers ....... A nightmare fior realists.....But really I give it a couple of weeks and all this rebellious rhetoric Will be but a distant memory.


LOL who does, if you mean people here that was in reply to you and others elsewhere who were coming up with the stupid suggestion that if Scotland voted YES the Shetlands could break away.. Glasgow, Monklands, West Dunbartonshire breaking away is a crazy idea just as the suggestion that Shetland or Orkney would..

Posted by: GG 22nd Sep 2014, 10:01pm

QUOTE (lubbock @ 22nd Sep 2014, 10:41pm) *
But really I give it a couple of weeks and all this rebellious rhetoric Will be but a distant memory.

I think that was probably me you're referring to, lubbock. I was actually only kidding ... I think smile.gif.

Anyway, a couple of weeks is certainly a lot longer than BT held together - disintegrating in less than 24 hours. Turns out Cameron has out-manoeuvred Labour big time.

QUOTE
... In response, Cameron now has promised fast-track action to enhance the powers of English lawmakers and to bar their Scottish colleagues from voting on some issues affecting England.

That creates a serious quandary for Labour. Parliamentary elections are coming up next year, and current polls show Labour is running slightly ahead of Cameron’s Conservatives. But with anti-Scottish resentment running high, Labour risks alienating English voters and losing its shot at a parliamentary majority, if it doesn’t agree to a plan to shut Scottish lawmakers out of some votes. The dilemma: Without the participation of overwhelmingly Labour Scottish lawmakers, the party probably couldn’t muster enough votes to pass key legislation.

Labour “could have a parliamentary majority but a minority on English health and education policy,” Philip Cowley, a professor of politics at Nottingham University, tells Bloomberg News. That would greatly diminish Labour’s influence in policymaking, since England accounts for more than 90 percent of the U.K. population.

Miliband has criticized Cameron for moving too rapidly on the issue, saying the Prime Minister was trying to “drive our country apart.” But the Labour leader hasn’t presented a plan of his own, to the dismay of some within the party who say he must address the dissatisfaction in England. “Labour seems to have been caught like a rabbit in the headlights,” says Ed Jacobs, a political consultant in Leeds who advises Labour candidates.

Cameron has wasted no time in capitalizing on the situation. “The challenge to Labour and Ed Miliband is clear: Either resolve this issue with us, or explain to the people of the rest of the U.K. why they shouldn’t have the same powers as we are rightfully devolving to the people of Scotland,” he wrote in the Mail on Sunday newspaper over the weekend. ...

GG.

Posted by: lubbock 22nd Sep 2014, 10:50pm

GG .... My posts recently have been tongue in cheeck mostly in response to some of the outlandish claims of "It wiz fixed" we the "45"...Citezentommy and his attempt to stay in the political spotlight.....I could campaign for an independent Govan based on the fact that when govan was annexed by Glasgow in 1912 I think.Most govanites were of the opnion that it should be Glasgow becoming part of Govan.I hate to see this added tension to our beautiful wonderous vibrant honest gritty city.So lets stick to what Glasgow does best been Friendly .

Posted by: lubbock 22nd Sep 2014, 11:33pm

GG .... My posts recently have been tongue in cheeck mostly in response to some of the outlandish claims of "It wiz fixed" we the "45"...Citezentommy and his attempt to stay in the political spotlight.....I could campaign for an independent Govan based on the fact that when govan was annexed by Glasgow in 1912 I think.Most govanites were of the opinion that considering we had our own police force ,court ,town hall, industry light and gas companies amongst other things,it should be Glasgow becoming part of Govan.I hate to see this added tension to our beautiful wonderous vibrant honest gritty city.So lets stick to what Glasgow does best being Friendly .

Posted by: lubbock 22nd Sep 2014, 11:35pm

Excuse the double posting..

Posted by: john.mcn 23rd Sep 2014, 12:05am



Psst thats 3 tongue.gif

Posted by: JAGZ1876 23rd Sep 2014, 06:30am

QUOTE (GG @ 22nd Sep 2014, 11:18pm) *
Turns out Cameron has out-manoeuvred Labour big time.


GG.


No great achievement, let's be honest Martin, most kids of primary school age could politicly out-manoeuvre Labour big time. yes.gif

Posted by: ashfield 23rd Sep 2014, 07:18am

QUOTE (JAGZ1876 @ 23rd Sep 2014, 07:47am) *
No great achievement, let's be honest Martin, most kids of primary school age could politicly out-manoeuvre Labour big time. yes.gif


I hope all of Scotland was tuned into the BBC this morning and watched the nasty John Redwood. A sure sign of what's to come for us in future (as some of us predicted)

Posted by: pumps100 23rd Sep 2014, 03:42pm

So many threads you don't know where to post!

Some interesting facts to come out of the Indyref:

Glasgow voted Yes at 53.49%. I was surprised at the turnout -only 75% (source Glasgow City Council)

On the Indyref for Scotland as a whole, if you split the demographic by age groups you would have this result;

Age 16 - 54 Yes 54% No 46%

Age 55+ Yes 34% No 66%

(Source Lord Ashcroft)

Regards

Ian


Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 23rd Sep 2014, 04:05pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 22nd Sep 2014, 06:53pm) *
Ratty, I thought you would be used to Dylan logic by now. laugh.gif




Illogical....

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif



Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 23rd Sep 2014, 04:08pm

QUOTE (ashfield @ 23rd Sep 2014, 08:35am) *
I hope all of Scotland was tuned into the BBC this morning and watched the nasty John Redwood. A sure sign of what's to come for us in future (as some of us predicted)


This Scots-racist was all over english tv last week saying the same thing. And no one up here in EBC land took him to task. Or BT...

Posted by: Mathieson 24th Sep 2014, 10:59am

Anyone else see the Jeanette Findlay tweeted comments on the referendum result and the "45"?

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 24th Sep 2014, 03:33pm

QUOTE (Ruchazie Rat @ 22nd Sep 2014, 06:47pm) *
Correct. I don`t see where I misquote that in my post. Well? The "they" I mention, (You forget the 70`s and 80`s? Plenty of proof there about the man in the street being united against the Establishment. But completely ignored. Remember how they "resolved" all those pesky miners`pickets? Pseudo-military policing bussed up from The Big Smoke), clearly refers to the powers-that-be aka the Establishment.

If you can`t see that, well....

wacko.gif wacko.gif wacko.gif


QUOTE (Dylan @ 22nd Sep 2014, 07:10pm) *
I just thought you should know..

Every day is a school day !


Hmmm. Maybe for you it is. Best of luck if you`re planning on Uni. (Knock over a bank?) To clear up any further confusions you experience, like thinking I said Major was the Big Man in charge during the miners` strike instead of Thatcher, (I was there back in the day, how come you got confused?!), why not put "L" and "R" at the end of your socks?

No hard feelings, though. Here`s something to see you through those cold winter morns on your way to that school. A pair of idiot mittens.



thumbup.gif

Posted by: lubbock 24th Sep 2014, 04:10pm

the curse of Scotland is the nine of diamonds....45 make nine...Diamonds !! More like a brass neck demanding a recount...anyone for cards?

Posted by: lubbock 24th Sep 2014, 05:30pm

The 45....another failed rebellion... ....Bonnie Prince Tommy..Mm...doesn't have the same ring to it ..does it....it's all becoming a bit predictable and boring ...Sad people chasing a sad cause...

Posted by: lubbock 24th Sep 2014, 05:56pm

What a bunch of losers this so called 45 are ..reading a ET columnists infantile scribble She blames the Elderly for the the defeat last week .. What a joker... And another thing George Sq it is and George Sq it stays ...I'll concede this you gave the union a kick in the B**s..but it failed ..get over it...

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 24th Sep 2014, 09:05pm

QUOTE (lubbock @ 24th Sep 2014, 04:27pm) *
the curse of Scotland is the nine of diamonds....

... and I always thought it was this



tongue.gif

Posted by: lubbock 24th Sep 2014, 09:23pm

Your got me there ....I'n chapping....

Posted by: wombat 24th Sep 2014, 09:27pm

laugh.gif laugh.gif

 

Posted by: bilbo.s 24th Sep 2014, 09:35pm

Zat wan fresh caught ?

Posted by: lubbock 24th Sep 2014, 09:51pm

There's something fishy going on here..Bless my sole......I'm only codding you...I better get my skates on and start trawling the net to see what else I can catch...I trout it but who knows ....sea you All I won't be ling...... Ah the auld wans ir the best.....Hahaha....

Posted by: lubbock 24th Sep 2014, 09:53pm

I"m having a Whale of a time........well you started it!!

Posted by: flam 25th Sep 2014, 09:48am

Always something fishy about Salmond and Sturgeon

Posted by: Betsy2009 25th Sep 2014, 09:58am

My little step mum used to say that you never see him with his wife, he's always with 'her'!!!

Posted by: bilbo.s 25th Sep 2014, 10:51am

What is the point of that post, Betsy. As far as I know, Mrs Salmond is in her seventies and would hardly be able to keep up with the heavy schedule of Ms Sturgeon. In any case, she is the spouse of a politician, and has no political obligations.

I think most folk are a wee bit fed-up with fishy remarks, such as flam's.

Posted by: Betsy2009 25th Sep 2014, 11:00am

I think Mrs S is quite right to keep well out of it but it was simply a comment on public perception. The other wives are more often seen in public but of course they are younger and possibly doing their 'duty' rather than actually wanting to do it.

Posted by: CAT 25th Sep 2014, 02:02pm

It hadn't even occurred to me. I have always thought that the husbands and wives of politicians should have nothing to with it.
Mrs Salmond Mr Lamont or Mrs Davidson ect I haven't seen any of them. What's the big deal!

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 25th Sep 2014, 10:14pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 25th Sep 2014, 12:08pm) *
I think most folk are a wee bit fed-up with fishy remarks ...

http://youtu.be/anjT71N4PGM

Posted by: rds60h 26th Sep 2014, 08:42am

Ruchazie Rat, I have not mentioned any Political Parties or allegiance to any of them and believe me the Tory Party particularly when it was under the leadership of Thatcher would never be where my allegiance would lie, and as far as Tony Blair was concerned in my opinion he was Maggie Thatcher in drag !!
In the 70's and 80's I worked in the Motor Industry and was a Trade Union Activist and I supported the Miners and I remember on several occasions being stopped by the Police and refused the right to continue my journey and this was without any proof of where I was going or what I was doing.
The one thing I have emphasised is the need for change, something which we obviously agree on, the only thing that we appear to disagree on is the way in which to achieve that.........................because I believe the only way it will be achieved is by strength and unity.
That is a very different position from the assumed stance of Yes supporters that many No supporters seem to think of them, I will agree that is not the reasoning behind everyone's Yes vote and that no doubt there were numerous Yes votes made on historic, religious and bigoted views, but that was also the case on the No side as well and I don't think any reasoning or truthful outcome would make any difference to how they would vote.

Posted by: lubbock 26th Sep 2014, 11:55am

Correct me if I"m wrong .But wasn't one of the recurring themes during the debate from the yes campaign to those considering voting no was that it wasn't about Salmond or the SNP.Now it seems the the dream of resurrecting the idea of Independance rests with SNP remaining in power next year...funny old world ...

Posted by: john.mcn 26th Sep 2014, 12:27pm

The vote for the next UK election is about keeping the heat on whoever wins the UK election, and to be honest it's looking like it's going to be the Tories outright or in another coalition. The Labour party just dont look up to much and Milibland is just zzzzzzzzzz, a vote for them up here with the tories in power is a wasted vote. So what if it's another 40 Labour MP's, the Tories aren't scared of them, but 40 SNP mps and its squeaky bum time for no10, that you cannot deny.
For too long most of the people in Scotland have placed their trust in Labour and where has it got them, just more careerist politicians wanting looked after from Uni to the House of Lords.
The referendum awoke many people who gave up on politics, i hope they dont just crawl away battered or bruised and instead use their voting powers to send another message...we are not going anywhere!!

Posted by: lubbock 26th Sep 2014, 02:07pm

Interesting to read the language in the various twitter sites from the 45 losers group. B******s, rats, Filth, F*****g Cowards, and this vile one "If we all spit together we can drown the B******s".. are just some of the comments aimed at the law abiding majority who voted NO.Democracy is swept under the carpet by the 45 malcontents.Those who's twitter account these abusive and threatening tweets are posted on never condemn those guilty of verbal abuse.Lets hope this so called movement disappears like the proverbial "Snaw aff a dyke"......

Posted by: john.mcn 26th Sep 2014, 02:22pm

Why would the cause for an iScotland disappear when it's been going on for decades?
As for abuse we've seen plenty of that in video form and today i seen a serving Armed forces grunt say he looked upon Yes voters like illegal muslim immigrants and they all should feck out of the country he thought for, i actually thought soldiers fought for freedom but there you go. I wouldn't be surprised if he was now reported, intelligence obviously not one of his strong points.

Posted by: lubbock 26th Sep 2014, 02:54pm

Again the language from those in both sides of the debate can be despicable .. But my main point was Those who receive tweets on their accounts do not condemn the threatening language and actually encourage and inflame the situation by doing so .The Tweet "if we all spit together we can drown the B******s" was received in the twitter account of one C*****N T***y..Still awaiting to see if the tweet is removed or condemned unlikely though..do you agree with my point ?

Posted by: Betsy2009 26th Sep 2014, 03:01pm

QUOTE (CAT @ 25th Sep 2014, 03:19pm) *
It hadn't even occurred to me. I have always thought that the husbands and wives of politicians should have nothing to with it.
Mrs Salmond Mr Lamont or Mrs Davidson ect I haven't seen any of them. What's the big deal!


No big deal, Cat.
I'd just noticed that when it's election time the wives and families get dragged out (family values and all that) but not during the referendum - it was more sleeves rolled up and down to the job of persuading people in either direction.

Posted by: john.mcn 26th Sep 2014, 03:02pm

I dont use twitter, by the sounds of it the whole point is a type of gang mentality, if thats the nature of the beast then it's unlikely to change. I asked my daughter about it, the whole twittersphere isn't nice place anyway and you can get abuse for just about anything, the indy debate would not change that.

Posted by: carmella 26th Sep 2014, 03:55pm

There are times I wish I had twitter because some of the debates and factual programmes I watch are constantly saying 'get in touch send us your tweet blah di blah di blah'

That's the only reason I'd want it.

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 27th Sep 2014, 10:46am

Carmella, you wouldn't want to be tweetin' because there is a restriction on how many words you can Tweet: 10? 20? I dunno.
Perhaps thats why they're so short and sweet (or not tongue.gif )

Posted by: bilbo.s 27th Sep 2014, 11:05am

QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 27th Sep 2014, 01:03pm) *
Carmella, you wouldn't want to be tweetin' because there is a restriction on how many words you can Tweet: 10? 20? I dunno.
Perhaps thats why they're so short and sweet (or not tongue.gif )


Not Kemedian's scene then !

Posted by: john.mcn 27th Sep 2014, 11:16am

QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 27th Sep 2014, 11:03am) *
Carmella, you wouldn't want to be tweetin' because there is a restriction on how many words you can Tweet: 10? 20? I dunno.
Perhaps thats why they're so short and sweet (or not tongue.gif )



And that is why politicians should stay away from it, the quote below was taken from J Lamonts twitter, i'm not sure if i think it's looks like it's from someone who doesn't speak English very well, or they are on their knees pleading.

QUOTE
Let us be the crusade the Labour Party was put on earth to be. We are the change makers. Let us change the world.

Posted by: carmella 27th Sep 2014, 11:20am

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 27th Sep 2014, 12:22pm) *
Not Kemedian's scene then !


Bill that is so funny, but I know you're right, as I've read this - wouldn't do for me at all laugh.gif

Posted by: carmella 27th Sep 2014, 11:22am

QUOTE (TeeHeeHee @ 27th Sep 2014, 12:03pm) *
Carmella, you wouldn't want to be tweetin' because there is a restriction on how many words you can Tweet: 10? 20? I dunno.
Perhaps thats why they're so short and sweet (or not tongue.gif )


TEE - you're a cheeky bugger but you are just too right, I've read this, so I think it's not for me, or as Bill says (who I replied to before you cause I hit the wrang message)referring also to Kemedian biggrin.gif

laugh.gif

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 27th Sep 2014, 01:02pm

QUOTE (carmella @ 27th Sep 2014, 12:39pm) *
TEE - you're a cheeky bugger biggrin.gif

laugh.gif

Recognition at last



Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 27th Sep 2014, 02:03pm

QUOTE (rds60h @ 26th Sep 2014, 09:59am) *
Ruchazie Rat, I have not mentioned any Political Parties or allegiance to any of them and believe me the Tory Party particularly when it was under the leadership of Thatcher would never be where my allegiance would lie, and as far as Tony Blair was concerned in my opinion he was Maggie Thatcher in drag !!
In the 70's and 80's I worked in the Motor Industry and was a Trade Union Activist and I supported the Miners and I remember on several occasions being stopped by the Police and refused the right to continue my journey and this was without any proof of where I was going or what I was doing.
The one thing I have emphasised is the need for change, something which we obviously agree on, the only thing that we appear to disagree on is the way in which to achieve that.........................because I believe the only way it will be achieved is by strength and unity.That is a very different position from the assumed stance of Yes supporters that many No supporters seem to think of them, I will agree that is not the reasoning behind everyone's Yes vote and that no doubt there were numerous Yes votes made on historic, religious and bigoted views, but that was also the case on the No side as well and I don't think any reasoning or truthful outcome would make any difference to how they would vote.


35 years of bitter experience of being on the receiving end has proven to me that "strength through unity" won`t rock the system. The people will always be on the receiving end of those who weld power. The Establishment sets the law. The law restrains us. Thus, they don`t have to listen to us. Ditto, why should they change? Unless it`s into one another; old Labour into New Labour aka Tory Labour. What "power" do we have? Protest? One million people descended on London to vent rage aginst warring on Iraq a decade ago. Blair done it anyway. Cos he wanted to. End of. Yesterday, who descended on Hyde Park when they decided to go back into Iraq? No-one.

The people KNOW they have to power. "A Voice" is just that. A way to release frustration. And then live with the consequences of whatever action OUR Masters have taken on their volition against our wishes.

What you can`t see, what YESSERS desperately desired, is the only option left available to The People. When change from within has been nullified by the system (Establishment) itself, the only valid course of action still available, and for that you should be grateful, is change from without. By leaving. And creating a new system.

yes.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 27th Sep 2014, 02:12pm

Max Keiser tells it like it is !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_NaMUZVTuQ

Posted by: mairead 27th Sep 2014, 03:31pm

Glad I don't use twitter or facebook.

Posted by: lubbock 28th Sep 2014, 04:00pm

The 45....A losing name for a losers dream.....

Posted by: lubbock 28th Sep 2014, 04:06pm

Why on earth would anyone support a group dismissive of the democratic process ....they are out to cause conflict and and as much mayhem in our city centers as the can... George Square it is and George Sq it Stays....

Posted by: john.mcn 28th Sep 2014, 04:13pm

Are they not allowed the freedom afforded to every other group then? Are you offended by the saltire, the young wanting real change, or the old wanting hope for their children and grandchildren.

Posted by: lubbock 28th Sep 2014, 04:21pm

Why don't they admit that the majority vote carried the day.. They seem to think the the Democrat decision taken by the people of Scotland was somehow...unfair....not correct...daylight robbery..a swindle ..collusion on a massive scale..or is it they will never accept that they had their chance ..But were well and truly gubbed..

Posted by: Ruchazie Rat 28th Sep 2014, 04:22pm

QUOTE (lubbock @ 28th Sep 2014, 05:23pm) *
Why on earth would anyone support a group dismissive of the democratic process ....they are out to cause conflict and and as much mayhem in our city centers as the can... George Square it is and George Sq it Stays....


A "democratic process" awash with fear stories, a biased orchestrated media, and empty promises. Perhaps you`re confusing the way our referendum was conducted with the way they "usually" do them in North Korea, Iraq, Cuba, El Salvador, hmmm?

angry.gif angry.gif angry.gif

Posted by: lubbock 28th Sep 2014, 04:44pm

If your serious about people voting NO for no other reason they were threatened ,coerced ,Or frightened..then I suggest some reading material for you ......Goldielocks & the three bears....


Posted by: john.mcn 28th Sep 2014, 04:56pm

QUOTE (lubbock @ 28th Sep 2014, 04:38pm) *
Why don't they admit that the majority vote carried the day.. They seem to think the the Democrat decision taken by the people of Scotland was somehow...unfair....not correct...daylight robbery..a swindle ..collusion on a massive scale..or is it they will never accept that they had their chance ..But were well and truly gubbed..



While i agree that some are thinking there was a mass government orchestrated plot, there are legitimate grievances towards the medias for the bias it portrayed. For the likes of private media companies then people may decide to spend their money elsewhere, for the likes of the BBC then they have us over a barrel even if we dont use their service we still have to pay their tax.
There is also of course the 'rewriting' of the question paper the week before the vote, it was a simple should Scotland be an independent country, yes or no but became should Scotland be an independent country , yes or no but with promises of more powers transferred to holyrood.
We will never know how many people changed their mind because of this promise, i wish they stuck to the Edinburgh agreement and not break purdah rules ( and the chancellor issuing a statement is a breach whatever way it's spun), we may or may not have had a different result. That may be in the past but we still have to make sure the 3 stooges keep up their promises, if demonstrations, public rallies and strategic voting to oust some members of parliaments does that then i hope it continues. You may dismiss the 1.6million as they 'lost' but i can bet there are people in Westminster absolutely bricking it that they are not going away.

Posted by: lubbock 28th Sep 2014, 05:06pm

I"all for legit ways of protesting but as you well know there is an underbelly to this 45 group who dismiss any reasoning whatsoever ,You must have read some of tweets on certain a failed Socialists twitter account.My faviourite and its directed towards NO supporters is...."if we all spit together we can drown the B******s"..nice isn't it and fully endorsed by the same failed Socialist traitor.Do you agree with sentiments like this aimed at the majority of Scits who voted to remain in the union ?

Posted by: Melody 28th Sep 2014, 05:17pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 27th Sep 2014, 03:29pm) *
Max Keiser tells it like it is !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_NaMUZVTuQ



He sure hit the nail on the head Bill. Fear is the key, pity the no voters never had the wit to see through it all. We'll keep fighting for as long as it takes though.

Posted by: Melody 28th Sep 2014, 05:17pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 27th Sep 2014, 03:29pm) *
Max Keiser tells it like it is !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_NaMUZVTuQ



He sure hit the nail on the head Bill. Fear is the key, pity the no voters never had the wit to see through it all. We'll keep fighting for as long as it takes though.

Posted by: Melody 28th Sep 2014, 05:23pm

Fear will hold you prisoner, hope will set you free.

Posted by: john.mcn 28th Sep 2014, 05:29pm

QUOTE (lubbock @ 28th Sep 2014, 05:23pm) *
I"all for legit ways of protesting but as you well know there is an underbelly to this 45 group who dismiss any reasoning whatsoever ,You must have read some of tweets on certain a failed Socialists twitter account.My faviourite and its directed towards NO supporters is...."if we all spit together we can drown the B******s"..nice isn't it and fully endorsed by the same failed Socialist traitor.Do you agree with sentiments like this aimed at the majority of Scits who voted to remain in the union ?



I dont use twitter, i have only browsed to a politicians postings as a guest to confirm the statements i've seen elsewhere.
I guess that you are referring to T Sheridan, the "if we all spit together we can drown the B******s" looks more like a call to punish Labour politicians to me.
I've heard that the majority of Scots actually voted for Indy, but the people born elsewhere in the UK/Europe swung the vote, no idea where that came from but if it was Ashcrofts poll just treat it like a football and boot it away..

Posted by: lubbock 28th Sep 2014, 05:39pm

No point in discussing this further ...

Posted by: john.mcn 28th Sep 2014, 05:58pm

QUOTE (lubbock @ 28th Sep 2014, 05:56pm) *
No point in discussing this further ...



not going the way you intended? biggrin.gif

Posted by: lubbock 28th Sep 2014, 06:18pm

No .... It's just wasting time Ive got more important things to be getting on with ....

Posted by: wombat 28th Sep 2014, 07:03pm

QUOTE (lubbock @ 28th Sep 2014, 06:01pm) *
If your serious about people voting NO for no other reason they were threatened ,coerced ,Or frightened..then I suggest some reading material for you ......Goldielocks & the three bears....



rolleyes.gif some light reading for U lubbock laugh.gif how anyone could vote against"their countrys independence is beyond me ? laugh.gif

 

Posted by: lubbock 28th Sep 2014, 07:08pm

Ouch!!!

Posted by: lubbock 28th Sep 2014, 07:10pm

A lot of things seem to beyond you....HA HA....

Posted by: wombat 28th Sep 2014, 07:21pm

laugh.gif laugh.gif ahm away tae get a cauld BEER,back in a jiffy.

Posted by: lubbock 28th Sep 2014, 07:26pm

I right thanks for asking!!.You know I prefer posting on this thread there is as other one buts its hoaching with lunitics and Sherry guzzling nasties ...

Posted by: wombat 28th Sep 2014, 07:28pm

laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: john.mcn 28th Sep 2014, 07:43pm

QUOTE (lubbock @ 28th Sep 2014, 07:43pm) *
I right thanks for asking!!.You know I prefer posting on this thread there is as other one buts its hoaching with lunitics and Sherry guzzling nasties ...



The naw'ers dont post as much nowadays biggrin.gif

Posted by: wombat 28th Sep 2014, 08:01pm

rolleyes.gif I imagine a few of em will be having a re think,now that the 3 amigos recanted on their

"promises" rolleyes.gif

Posted by: TeeHeeHee 28th Sep 2014, 10:09pm

QUOTE (bilbo.s @ 27th Sep 2014, 02:29pm) *
Max Keiser tells it like it is !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_NaMUZVTuQ

Yeah, a horrible decision. wacko.gif

Posted by: bilbo.s 28th Sep 2014, 10:22pm

QUOTE (lubbock @ 28th Sep 2014, 09:43pm) *
I right thanks for asking!!.You know I prefer posting on this thread there is as other one buts its hoaching with lunitics and Sherry guzzling nasties ...



Jist hivin' a wee pint o' Manzanilla de Sanlúcar de Barrameda afore retirin' fur the nicht. ¡ Hasta pronto , Tonto !