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> Did Tories Kill 25,000 Glaswegians?, New research points to lethal political attack
farci
post 23rd Jun 2011, 09:09am
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'Chinese Whispers' might be the title of this topic - that's the phenomenon where with each retelling a story changes to the point where the original statement is lost. Combine that with the journalese style of the headline:
Did Tories Kill 25,000 Glaswegians?, New research points to lethal political attack and we are well on the way to losing the plot completely.

Like other posters I believe this is a piece of academic introspection which should be treated with the greatest scepticism. It seems to based on an interpretation of the 'Bradford-Hill Criteria' which I believe are recognised as having limitations.

4/10 for the researchers.
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flashton
post 23rd Jun 2011, 09:23am
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It's a very useful paper and provides an analysis of the direct links between economic and social policies and the health of the nation. The problem is that the time lag between the two is often decades and the politicians have long gone.

There are several policies from the 1980s/90 where this is evident. An obvious one was the introduction of compulsory competitive tendering where contracts often went to the lowest bidder. Privatisation of hospital cleaning and the rise of MRSA and other hospital infections was no coincidence.

School meals was another. I have just been studying an interesting parallel from the early part of the 20th century where army recruits were found to be so malnourished that Britain was felt to be in danger by the troops not being up to scratch. The introduction of school meals was one of the responses to this concern.

Equally interesting is that the 1980s saw this policy reversed (at least here in England) with the result that many school kitchens closed. Fast forward twenty years and the concern is once again malnourished (obesity this time) adults and children in the lowest socio -economic groups.

It seems that the lessons of history are never learned.
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Dunvegan
post 23rd Jun 2011, 09:57am
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QUOTE (flashton @ 23rd Jun 2011, 07:14pm) *
It's a very useful paper and provides an analysis of the direct links between economic and social policies and the health of the nation. The problem is that the time lag between the two is often decades and the politicians have long gone. ...

The response to malnutrition in the 1900s was indeed based on the need for fit canon fodder. This was hardly addressed up to the second world war where the German Nazis, albeit at the expense of others, put in place health and welfare schemes in order to breed fitter canon fodder than the rest of Europe. The contrast between the allied prisoners at Dunkirk and their fit German captors was a very marked indeed. It was not until the fifties, "The welfare state", that the nutrition of the lower socio economic portion of the country was ever taken into account.
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**greta**
post 23rd Jun 2011, 10:03am
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The tories have always hit Glasgow hard because it was a Labour stronghold. So well done to these scientists for highlighting this fact. Of course it has to be one of the reasons, poverty and drink going along with it, as well as loss of hope. Thats one reason that you will never (no matter what) find myself as a Glaswegion and Scot, voting Tory.
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Papadoc
post 23rd Jun 2011, 10:05am
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Nothing whatsoever to do then with the Tamany Hall style of a Socialist Council over all these years.

They have never given a toss for the people who automatically vote for them, so long as they were able to line their own pockets and provide jobs for their friends and relatives.
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ionnsaigh
post 23rd Jun 2011, 10:15am
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Difficult to believe that the British Tory government, would racially pick on the working class of Scotland, in a malicious manner. Then again we had the Poll Tax exclusively introduced, worth noting that Northern Ireland was left out of the legislation ...... one wonders why.

One thing is for sure, the Tories hated Strathclyde Regional Council, both for it's size and subsequent power, enjoyed and abused by the criminal overlords, of the Labour Party in Scotland....... The Labour Party or rather it's Middle Class timidity, both allowed and sanctioned, without as much as a whisper of meaningful protest, an attack not only on the poor, rather the people of Scotland.......

Poverty kills people, the finger of blame points firmly and ultimately, to the economic system Capitalism, a system that ultimately depends on the exploitation of the many by the few. One that is thankfully doomed to failure, due to it's own inherent antagonistic contradiction, ( wan that pits wan against the other ) a system that's embraced equally, by the Labour and Tory parties ( throw in the SNP ).

Twenty Five Thousand Glaswegians, is a cross underestimate of the disease and premature deaths that Capitalism creates.


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frankbuntain
post 23rd Jun 2011, 11:25am
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I am not a politically driven person neither labour or tory. I voted NO to this topic and wonder how any reasonably thinking person can be dupted into thinking that the Glasgow Effect was the result of any political party. Glasweigans have the choice to change their own surrundings but many do not have the will to better themselves or their local enviroment. I can't believe that Glasgow alone has been effected and places like Liverpool, Newcastle or Dundee (as examples) and other cities/town have not. Glasgow needs to think why would someone or organisation spread this kind of topic???
Think Glasgow THINK!!
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Rabbie
post 23rd Jun 2011, 11:57am
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Nope, yet another pile of over simplified, twisted statistical garbage falsely derived by some shower of biased pseudo intellectual twits.

As much as I detest politicians of all persuasions. of all ilks, it is incorrect and illogical to claim the "Glasgow Effect as being due the Tories political agendas in 80's, 90's.

You do not have to look far to find that many, cities home and abroad, run by different regimes suffer the same effects, or WORSE!

Perhaps the "Glasgow Effect" should be labelled "The Urban Effect."


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wee davy
post 23rd Jun 2011, 12:12pm
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GG posts are normally for people to do just that, frank (having been a member since 2006, I'm SURE you will know that already).

Aside from any party political issues, it is a disgrace, that in 2011, there is such a disparity in mortality rates, MERELY ACROSS THE CITY, never mind compared with anywhere else.

To blame it on the population, is I think not only unfair - but doesn't do one positive thing to address the issue. You may as well suggest people who die of malnutrition, starvation and dehydration choose to die this way, because they are foolish enough to 'live' where they reside.

THINK UK - THINK!


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GG
post 23rd Jun 2011, 08:22pm
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Thanks wee davy, yes, absolutely, the most important thing that can be done in this forum, in its own modest way, is to encourage and facilitate people to think about issues which affect Glaswegians. In this case, everyone knows that far higher numbers of Glaswegians have been dying over the last three decades than anywhere else in the UK, but still – in the 21st Century – this increased mortality rate continues to blight the lives of many thousands of Glaswegian families. And it's not just about premature death, it's also about the quality of the lives lived by Glaswegians.

No matter how unpalatable to some, we need to better understand the reasons for this higher mortality rate in order to address it. It's no use this research being carried out if people are not going to read it and discuss it. This is not a subject for ivory towers, but, I believe, one for ordinary Glaswegians to get involved in.

GG.


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GG
post 23rd Jun 2011, 08:37pm
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QUOTE (tamhickey @ 23rd Jun 2011, 04:11am) *
I worked in the Licensed trade during the eighties, and saw the effects that Government policies had on people. Skilled tradesmen were being made redundant in mining, shipbuilding, steelworks and in the building of trains. This de-industrialisation left thousands of people who had worked all their lives in the same trade, and with the same friends undergoing a huge change in their lives, where, bereft of their trades, they would meet up in the pub to pass their days. These were guys who were in the main aged around 45 plus who had done nothing else in their lives apart from the work that the Government had quite deliberately killed off. It led to depression, confusion and a real lack of self esteem for many, but also led to others investing their redundancy money into businesses, moving abroad and buying their homes. That, of course would be dependant on the amount of money available upon redundancy, but the above figure of 25,000 seems rather conflated. However, it's also dependent upon the time scale involved and the veracity of these figures have to be examined in light of all of the above.

Tam, here's an extract of what the report says about deindustrialisation:

QUOTE
The West of Scotland may have suffered a more rapid and profound process of deindustrialisation than other areas of the UK and Europe, although the evidence for Glasgow City in comparison to Manchester and Liverpool is less certain. Sharp deindustrialisation was a particular feature of Scotland from the late 1970s onwards and the loss of employment that was associated with it contributed to the inequalities in the UK between the South-East of England and elsewhere. Such a rapid loss of employment and community structure is likely to have had an important influence on the culture of Scotland and Glasgow, and on the health-related behaviours.

There is increasing evidence to suggest that the pace and manner of deindustrialisation was forced in the UK, in comparison to other European countries, and that this was part of a broader ‘political attack’.

Growing up in one of the worst-affected areas of Glasgow during the timescale we are talking about, I watched the life and vitality literally drain from the men whose jobs were taken away. So many of them never recovered; as you say, many sunk into a life of going to the pub and the bookies, withdrawing from their families as they were engulfed in hopelessness. It is tragic to think that such despair and isolation could have been avoided, that pace of deindustrialisation was forced in order to deliberately destabilise and destroy whole communities.

Below is a graphic from the GCPH report which puts the 'political attack' hypothesis into the wider context of the process which leads to higher mortality.

Attached Image

GG.


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GG
post 23rd Jun 2011, 08:56pm
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QUOTE (farci @ 23rd Jun 2011, 09:00am) *
... Like other posters I believe this is a piece of academic introspection which should be treated with the greatest scepticism. It seems to based on an interpretation of the 'Bradford-Hill Criteria' which I believe are recognised as having limitations.

4/10 for the researchers.

Farci, as far as I understand, the researchers were well aware of the potential limitations of their study – including the use of the Bradford-Hill criteria – and sought to minimise any possible misinterpretations or omissions. In fact, they have already embarked on a further investigation of the possible implications of the limitations of their study.

If you are skeptical of this academic approach to solving an intractable problem, perhaps you can suggest how the problem might be better solved?

GG.


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Grampar
post 23rd Jun 2011, 09:49pm
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Whether or not your posts from people who live outside Glasgow hold any relevance the simple fact remains that since pre 1707 the "English" Government has always taken from Scotland more than it's fair share and aimed it's guns at Glasgow in particular, and this has been shown time and time again. For those who post from outside Glasgow your views are always welcome but do they reflect this City in any way? I do not think so. My eldest son has lived in Cornwall for 26 of his 43 years and denegrates the City of his birth, fed by the lies he hears from his Tory pals, at any opportunity. He is a clean living Christian but, foul language and inuendo apart, he reminds of that other expat Frankie Boyle as far as his attitude towards our City is concerned. They, as other expats furth of the City are concerned, missed the Glasgow Effect by leaving the Dear Green place. And so it has always been. Some maintain their Scottish-ness but deny their Glaswegian birthright and are only too pleased to knock the City at the least opportunity but they forget those of us who stayed in the City and fell foul of this dreadful " plague". I am one of them. I turned to alcohol and my body is shot to pieces from the liver out but thanks to medical skills and my Christian friends and family, in particular my Minister, I overcame the dreaded booze ( and fags ) and now live a happier and more contended life . But lets not kid oursleves Thatcher's dislike of the Scots can be summed up in two words POLL TAX. So it has been Tory, behind closed doors, policy since the "Parcel o' Rogues in a Nation" sold Scotlands birthright in 1707 and I am sorry to say. will continue to be so. If in doubt just listen to Annabel Goldie and read between the lines how she would return to Westminster only rule ASAP. Just think what that would mean for Glasgow! Hopefully the Glasgow Effect is now history and through our devolved Government will for ever remain so.
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Macbeast
post 23rd Jun 2011, 11:08pm
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QUOTE
" In fact, they are already embarked on a further investigation of the possible implications of the limitations of their study. "

So the researchers have no confidence in their own published conclusions and fear that they might in fact be a load of horse manure ?
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GG
post 23rd Jun 2011, 11:41pm
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Macbeast, good point, but the one thing you can always be sure about published scientific research papers is that one of the recommendations will be that further research is required clarify and explore the findings of the research just done. Indeed, this research was a synthesis and classification of pre-existing hypotheses derived from previous research. It's how knowledge is constructed in the scientific community; it's just the nature of the (mac)beast! smile.gif

GG.


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